Your sound... Discuss

[LeMark]

I don't know if you watched my unboxing video for the 534, but I commented that the first time I played a 534 it was a fairly new model, and it played... OK. I thought it was a decent copy of the 2341 for 3/4 of the price.

Fast forward to this February when I picked one up in DC. It completely blew me away, and I talked to Chuck about how that could be. He went through with me of the laundry list of tweaks and improvements they have done to this model in the last decade, including changing the alloy they use for the valves to make them reliably smooth and quiet. This horn wasn't even on my radar at that point, but when I played another one the following weekend at TMEA and my wife said "you need to buy that tuba" after just listening to me play it for 30 seconds, I knew she was right

[Mary Ann]

There do exist good and near-perfect fits. For me it was a mouthpiece -- going though the box-o-pieces at a single lesson with a teacher who actually helped me, I put one in, blew just one note, and he said, "THAT ONE!" Used it ever since. Sounds like your wife basically also said "THAT ONE!" in the tuba you bought. Sometimes it's just right and if you're smart you jump on it.

[bloke]

I think it would be interesting if JP made a knock-off of the (slightly smaller than "new-style" King 2341) 4/4 York/Holton B-flat tubas (with the typical aftermarket King front-action valve section)...As far as the King design, there's already King, Eastman, and (yes?) a third one that's not as good as Eastman.

As far as the York/Holton 4/4 thing is concerned...

For SCHOOLS:
The York/Holton copy bells would be less likely to pancake crease (at only 19 inches), and
(at only 32" tall) the young scholars would be less likely to bowl over them when galloping through band rooms.

For PLAYERS:
The best of these are (just plain) better than the "new-style" King design.
(ref: Yorkboy, or the less traditional valve section one that I built)

Am I changing the subject because I'm losing an argument?
nope...I alright strongly suspected that Eastman King knock-off is better than the super-early one I saw,
but you also reported that (rather than equally good) the one you have now is a noticeably better one than was previously handed off to you.

Also, I would suspect that even JP wouldn't built a York/Holton 4/4 knock-off as well as Yorkboy builds his.
I also doubt that they would be interested in including 5th rotors.

Here's a pre-assembled view of one of Yorkboy's 32-inch-tall York/Holton B-flat projects.
He does damn-nice valveset work, and (I'd wager) dials in his slide alignment to the same extent as do I...
...not that even a high-grade Chinese knockoff's slides would be 100% dialed in, but (again) I view these as superior (in design and playing characteristics) to the new-style King design (regardless of the builder of the design).
('m not re-hosting a picture of mine...You've seen that one way too many times.)
This is one of Yorkboy's builds...fairly near completion...
(Maybe it's compete by now, and he'd stick up a pic of it all put together...??) @Yorkboy



C versions?
meh...Those would only be for Americans, wouldn't sound as good, and wouldn't play as well in tune.

[catgrowlB]

I can usually just look at a tuba, and get a good idea if I will like it or not by the shape/dimensions it has. It will give me a good idea as to its tonal qualities/playing characteristics.

That said, I like many different types of tubas even if some models are not popular, or have flaws. If it has the playing characteristics I'm looking for and is workable, I'll enjoy it. I'll sound like me on whatever I play

I already have more than enough tubas. But I only have one bass trombone, yet I do jazz/big band on it for a local college and it works great. I'd only obtain more horns if there were more gigs to justify it...

[bloke]

...tweaks and improvements they have done to this model in the last decade...

again,

nothing against the maker (I've seen good stuff) nor their US representative, but "improvements over the last decade" and "varying from one to the next over a period of recent months" - at least, not to me - are incongruent, and don't make any sort of point that I can summarize in my own words...

...particularly when recommending to us that they be bought en masse by school systems.

[Stryk]

We all have a unique sound because of how we leaned, our teeth, our oral cavity, our lung capacity, etc. I think a horn or mouthpiece can enhance or detract from it a little bit, but not much - hopefully we buy those things to make our playing easier, not different.

[gocsick]

As time goes by my lunch capacity has continues to grow while my lung capacity has stagnated.

[Stryk]

As time goes by my lunch capacity has continues to grow while my lung capacity has stagnated.

Gotta love spell check, but it was rather fitting!

[bloke]

re: aging process:

Several years ago, I rid myself of my excess weight...
Several large hernias appeared (or - perhaps - had been previously "supported" by my excess layer of fat...??).
It was pretty traumatic (dealing with them, while playing the "waiting to be on Medicare" game, as well as recovery, as there were four huge ones).
I sat around a bunch, and retreated to (well...) eating things (high in carbohydrates/sugars) that I knew would "make it through" easily.

I ended up picking back up about 40% of that which I had lost.

I'm finally getting back around to getting rid of it - once again - and have re-lost about 40% of the 40%, so far.
Over the last couple of weeks, my body was stubbornly trying to hold onto it's size, but - suddenly ("wham") I'm down four pounds (encouraging, when a pursuit - once again - begins to work as hoped).

I'm just too old to be putting (weight + speed = impact...even though y'all will correct my ignorance in physics) that much stress on back/hips/knees/feet (ok...and heart, but my heart seems to be quite strong, and my blood pressure is "fine"...I'm on no "meds", thankfully).

...and yeah...
TUBA

I PLAY BETTER (at least, it FEELS better) when I'm not overweight.

bloke "There are a whole bunch of nice clothes - in my closet - waiting for me to complete this project."

...and - were I to push things and drop yet another 20 lbs. - there are things in my closet (Brooks Bros, etc., etc.) from back when I was in my 40's...but - when I was that thin - people were asking me if I was "not feeling well" (a polite was of asking someone if they have cancer).

[Paulver]

Well......... as we all know........ there are only three variables when playing a brass instrument.......... the instrument, the mouthpiece, and the player. When all three line up like the lucky stars, you have the best of everything. When one of those three is "faulty", the search for the correct answers begins.

Example 1: We had bought our daughter her first french horn..... a Holton Farkas pro double model. She was using the stock mouthpiece that came with it. I also had some miscellaneous horn mouthpieces left over from my 35 years of teaching band that she occasionally tried. She got very proficient on that horn quite quickly. When we switched from me teaching her, to an actual horn instructor, he said that the existing mouthpiece was fine. However, in my quest to help her to continually improve, I started my own search for better mouthpieces. My repairman friend was a horn player, and he handed me several from his collection and told me to try them all. She did..... and not much changed for almost the entire collection.... about ten of them. Then she tried the Schilke that was included in the bunch, and we all just stood there and stared!! It was a world of difference. She used it for awhile, and we eventually stumbled on to a guy in New York who offered consultations on mouthpieces, sound, etc., specifically for french horn players. We went to see him. He had her play several excerpts with that Schilke. Then he started to hand her different mouthpieces. After an hour or so, he had her try a Laskey. That mouthpiece was like night and day. She sounded great on it.

After a few personal conversations with Scott Laskey, I learned from him that he had learned to make mouthpieces, working for Renold Schilke.
Obviously, Scott made some improvements on the Schilke designs.

Example 2: A friend of mine... a professional trumpet player, occasionally came to my school to play and give clinics on brass. He has an absolutely beautiful sound. One day while giving a clinic, I handed him an old, beat up, filthy, cruddy, trumpet that obviously came over with Christopher Columbus, to play for the kids. They all laughed because they were all familiar with said trumpet from the dark hole of the storage room. He played that thing, and the kids were mesmerized. It sounded almost as good as the one he normally plays.

Example 3: A few years back, I had the opportunity to play along with several other brass players, with a professional brass group for some Christmas performances. I'm not a pro by any means, and on my best day, I consider myself to be an incredibly average tuba player. I only started playing tuba on a whim several years ago. Anyway, I ended up standing beside the tuba player for the pro group, and sort of hung on to his coattails for the evening. When it was all over, he turned to me and told me that I played quite well, had good intonation, articulated nicely, and had a really nice sound. This guy is also a tuba prof at a Tennessee University, I believe. Now...... I don't know if he was just being nice, or if that's what he really thought. Honestly.... I was stunned by his comments!! I was using my Miraphone 186 BBb with my Laskey 28H. I had been playing rather regularly around that time, and practicing quite a bit, so I was in fairly good shape.

The point of all of this is that all three of variables I'd mentioned at the beginning of this post contribute to whatever sound you end up with. Can one of those variables make up for the other two? I would guess "yes" to some extent. But, I would emphatically state that a proficient player has the most influence on the overall sound. The other two can enable the player to do even more with it. i. e. ......the right tools for the right job!!!

[TriStateFans]

I have three basic parts to my sound, and it carries across all horns.

1) Bad accuracy
2) Bad intonation
3) Bad tone

I have no difficulty maintaining these three qualities no matter which horn I switch to.

[bloke]

Well......... as we all know........ there are only three variables when playing a brass instrument.......... the instrument, the mouthpiece, and the player.

Risking being accused of being argumentative, there's also the temperature.

I'm not posting here to think up more stuff "because" (as most everything else would fall under your "the player" category), but I view "the temperature" as a 4th/legitimate variable...

...I won't even include "the venue" - because the tuba is not a solo instrument, and all the other instruments are subject to that same variable.

[Paulver]

Bloke..... I can, in a way agree with you, but as I normally see it, temperature is an atmospheric condition that might affect the sound AFTER it is produced by the player, and as it leaves the instrument. The horn would react to the temperature ........ "pun intended"...... to a degree, depending on the make, model, and metalic make-up of the instrument, and the player's ability to think ahead and adjust tone production in whatever way he/she thinks is necessary for the temperature conditions.

[Mary Ann]

With horns, temperature is a big deal because it depends on both temperature and humidity where in the horn the spit gathers, which is where the temperature of the horn gets below the dew point of the air going through it. It matters; you get a gurgle and have no idea where it is. First you do the standard emptying by pulling the two tuning slides (on my horn.) Next is the steering wheel if you still gurgle (assuming your rest is long enough.) If not that, then you have to check each valve slide individually (if you don't have a routine like I do where emptying them is part of the general emptying routine.) When you finally do find the source of the gurgle, you have to be careful not to blow too hard or the water will just get out of the way and not come out as the air goes blasting by. Best is if you can isolate it and then dump instead of blowing. (I cannot personally do that with a tuba.)
Or here, in summer, in an outdoor concert you can play two hours and have no spit in the horn whatsoever because of the 105 degrees and 4% humidity. The horn does not get anywhere near the dew point of what you blow in there.

[bloke]

An atmospheric condition is just as much a reality as is an instrument or a player, in my view. Again, I really can't think of anything beyond adding that to sdd to your list.

It's going to affect tuba playing considerably more than it's going to affect electric keyboard playing (thus the potential for more and more discrepancies crying out to be addressed) and we do a lot of playing in conjunction with electric keyboards, at least I do.

Mary Ann, I guess I overlooked humidity, because it's always between 55% and 100% where I live, and never dips down into the 20s or 30s.

I'm constantly ridding my instruments of water, and that's why some of my tubas have seven water keys, and even on upper #1 slides - so that I can subtly tilt the bell down, open that water key up there, depress the first valve, and release water without making an upper first slide clank noise...(you know: the type that tuba players choose to make during oboe solos in a slow movements).

... and maybe that's another reason why I tend to be attracted to rotary mechanism instruments, because many of them direct their water to only a couple of places.

[Pauvog1]

Being an anti-American rejector of C tubas, and now owning three B-flats, I have uses for all three, and it is because of their different types of sound. I also have two euphoniums which are used for different types of things because of their different types of sound. I also use the F cimbasso/contrabass trombone because of its type of sound, and the F tuba because of its type of sound. I don't rate them. Sometimes a bobcat is the best thing, and sometimes a track hoe is the best thing.

I know I'm late to the party here (and off topic), 3 Bb's? I knew about the Mira and the Holton, what is the third? (Purely curious / nosey )

[bloke]

It's a compensating Besson from either the 60s or late 50s. (I've never researched the serial number.) It's one of those with a 24-inch detachable recording bell, so I use it outdoors with large ensembles. I did make an auxiliary upright bell for it out of an inexpensively bought Yamaha 201 upright bell (one of the earlier ones, which was only 17 in in diameter and - thus - identical to what would have been the upright bell for this Besson).

It's currently a three valve compensating - which is fine, but I have a really nice condition four valve compensating 1970s era valve section to transplant to it someday. This 3-valve comp. valve section features nickel slides (whereas the 4-valve comp valve section features brass slides), so I'll be swapping out tubes (to keep the nickel) as well as swapping out valve sections.

Basically, it's a playable w.i.p. (work in progress). These instruments (other than the middle-of-staff E-flat) offer remarkably good intonation and a wonderful breadth of sound (particularly with the 24-inch recording bell). These 3-valve compensating pistons aren't the best (worn plating), I actually DO have a couple of better-condition 3-valve compensating valve sections, but - since it's going to disappear eventually (and even its nickel tubes will be harvested and donated) - I see no reason to improve the temporary situation.

I sort-of approve of the "industrial" (yes?) look of the upright bell when combined with the detachable feature.

Being a "hard case doofus", (yes, of course) I have a case for the body, another for the recording bell, and yet another for the upright bell.

[kingrob76]

I absolutely and firmly believe individual instruments fit people uniquely. Many traits may show up for many players, but not all traits for all players.

When I bought my 1291 I flew out to WWBW and started trying them. I had played a couple of them and knew I liked the model so it was worth it to me to make a day trip on Southwest to Chicago, drive over, pick one, and drive / fly back. Roger Lewis was very accommodating and brought down several from the warehouse (I think he had 15 or so in silver in stock) for me to sample. The first 4 I played were ok, but, I wasn't going to buy any of them - there was nothing WRONG with them, but, nothing special. The 5th one grabbed me though, Roger was sitting across the room and could tell. I could tell. He called it "shaking hands" with the horn. Yep, that was indeed the one. I noted the serial number, we did the paperwork, and that was it.

When I bought my first Getzen (circa 2000 or so) I tried several in Dave Fedderly's basement, and then he started swapping slides between them, mixing and matching. I walked out of there that day with a GREAT little horn that was just *easy* to play. Interestingly, my second Getzen was pretty good as well but didn't grab me the same way until I spent 9 months having it modified and adjusted, and now it's perfect for me. We don't shake hands, we high-five.

I've owned two 188's, and the second one was different enough from the first in that I never quite shook hands with it so I sold it. It's an EXCELLENT example though, and in gold brass / nickel it's going to be around for a while because JTM loves it.

What I came to realize is that if the garbage going into the horn (me) didn't match the expectation of the garbage coming out of the horn then it didn't work for me. Sometimes it's a feel, sometimes it's the sound on a recording, but you know when it isn't right. One of the benefits of aging is getting to know myself better and more easily cater to my needs as a player. And across all the horns, I sound like *me* - these things just happen to align with the sound I have in my head.

[bloke]

When I bought my first Getzen...

Comparing the various stubby, roughly-19-inch-bell King-bore-size C "factory cut-downs", the sound of those Getzen-sold tubas has consistently impressed me more than any of the others.

I realize that - today - the popular groupthink is to ooh and aah over the Eastman ones... (' sorry!)

OK...(another admission) when someone has stuck a York or Holton bell on one of those CB tubas, I've typically liked them even more.

I really like my (stuck-together-by-me) Holton (B-flat - same platform, just not cut to C) because it sounds like those Getzen-sold tubas.
When I first played it (all beat up, and still 3-valve top-action) I knew that it deserved to be restored/enhanced.

I still believe that King (for the most part) made those CB things, but I'm not going to argue.

[kingrob76]

They are very alike but also have some major differences.

Like the weight.

My Getzen is HEAVY for its size (31.5"). The metal is NOT thin. In fact, there were some that were supposed to be performed by MW that got "omitted" from the process about half way through the production run, making later ones (like mine) even heavier than my old one. If I ever decide to address the legendary silver plating issues these things had there is plenty of material for buffing. Feedback may suffer a bit, but, once properly braced (Lee Stofer did all the hard work figuring this out) that changes dramatically the way the horn plays and feels. I was lucky in that Lee shared a ton of information with me and I was able to side-by-side one he modified with an original. I need to do a post on mine at some point, it's fascinating (to me). MAW valves moved mine from "really good" to "sublime" (largely in the feel category).

The comparable Eastman instruments are lighter and feel more refined but offer different sound palettes. They are new and shiny. I REALLY like the 832 I tried in February, but, I like this Getzen more. I'd be very happy with either of the Eastman CC's provided I found one with which I could shake hands.