Bell diameter, flare, taper, etc.

[Grumpikins]

I'm wondering about the effects of different varieties of the above mentioned features on a tuba.

For this discussion, say you could try multiple variations on a single tuba.

Anybody know of actual scientific research on this yielding measurable data?

Frankentubaists experience swapping bells?

I'm curious about this because of the new .marching tubas our school bought. The bells are obscenely huge. It seems to me that is a detriment to projection of sound. Doesn't the larger diameter "pancake" style bell flare diffuse sound more?

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[OhTubaGuy]

Curious about these new instruments. Can you share photos or model information?

[UncleBeer]

Anybody know of actual scientific research on this yielding measurable data?

This hardware/software package allows physical modeling of real-world instruments. You can get an idea of tuning, response, and resonance from the results you input. It's pretty amazing (yes, I own one). https://www.artim.at/en/bias-for-brasses_extended/

I proposed a discussion of this tool at last year's Arizona conference, but was refused.

[bloke]

Anybody know of actual scientific research on this yielding measurable data?

This hardware/software package allows physical modeling of real-world instruments. You can get an idea of tuning, response, and resonance from the results you input. It's pretty amazing (yes, I own one). https://www.artim.at/en/bias-for-brasses_extended/

I proposed a discussion of this tool at last year's Arizona conference, but was refused.

casting pearls before swine

[catgrowlB]

I'm curious about this because of the new .marching tubas our school bought. The bells are obscenely huge. It seems to me that is a detriment to projection of sound. Doesn't the larger diameter "pancake" style bell flare diffuse sound more?

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Are those marching tubas the YBB 202's with the circa 21 inch bells? It just means they are a little closer to the sousaphone sound, which I think on field is good. Most sousas have 24" to 26" bells.

A wider bell will diffuse, but also mellow and 'blossom' the sound. It will also take away some punch and clarity. Everything is a give and take. Bell flare taper and throat give sound color.

Mouthpipe and valveset bore size will mostly affect response and output.

Inner and outer bows affect a little of everything, but the taper rate mostly affect intonation.

[bloke]

...so Yama is having a bell diameter contest with King...??

I picked up another couple of schools, this summer.
One handed me their "spare" (trashed) contra to repair.
They own Kings...

I believe they're going to continue to use me...The tuba playin' assistant band director told me that the one I fixed is going to be swapped out for the one the first-chair kid was using.

I only recently repaired a couple of the Yamaha ones for the first time ever...This was the first King I'd ever fixed.
(Not many high schools - at least, not around here - use contras.)

The King (originally) had a tune-any-note gadget on it. The slide for it is still aligned perfectly, but they?/someone? had removed the gadgetry.
I asked about replacing it, and I was told they don't use those...so whatever. (I suspect they would help...)

[Grumpikins]

They are king something marching tubas. They are huge. Much bigger than the G contras I marched with.

On the field, outdoors, I would much rather have more clarity and punch than tone color. Low brass always sounds like mud to me when I'm in the stands.

Anyway. I didnt want to discuss what horns are better. I just wanted some input about the specific effect of those details on bells.

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[Mary Ann]

"Anyway. I didnt want to discuss what horns are better. I just wanted some input about the specific effect of those details on bells."

You have not yet learned that the OP has zero control over where the TFFJ takes the thread?

But the software (?) looks interesting to me and I'd be interested in who wrote it, because that's where the knowledge came from, having had both a Lawson mouthpiece and bell make noticeable significant changes to my Schmid horn's sound, response, intonation, and slotting.

[iiipopes]

The solution is to discontinue bazooka style marching tubas and to reinstate the sousaphone.

[tokuno]

Doesn't the larger diameter "pancake" style bell flare diffuse sound more?

You have not yet learned that the OP has zero control over where the TFFJ takes the thread?

Did someone say Pancakes!? I love pancakes!

[Mary Ann]

Only with real maple syrup, otherwise bleah.

[bloke]

Only with real maple syrup, otherwise bleah.

Once there was no more Aunt Jemima nor Indian girl on the butter pkg., I was done with 'em.

[MiBrassFS]

Mrs. Butterworth still loves ya, Joe…

“Real” maple syrup can mean all sorts of things. Lots of different grades. Gotta be in a small range or is can taste like yuck.

[peterbas]

But the software (?) looks interesting to me and I'd be interested in who wrote it, because that's where the knowledge came from, having had both a Lawson mouthpiece and bell make noticeable significant changes to my Schmid horn's sound, response, intonation, and slotting.

Read the "about us" https://www.artim.at/en/about-us/
and https://www.widholm.at/innovationen_en/

[UncleBeer]

But the software (?) looks interesting to me and I'd be interested in who wrote it, because that's where the knowledge came from, having had both a Lawson mouthpiece and bell make noticeable significant changes to my Schmid horn's sound, response, intonation, and slotting.

One of the developers, Gregor is an accomplished hornist. I've had extensive correspondence with him; he knows both the technical- and the human side of brass playing.

[Grumpikins]

The solution is to discontinue bazooka style marching tubas and to reinstate the sousaphone.

I agree wholeheartedly. The bazookas belong in drum and bugle corps. But there's no arguing with band directors who want to leach everything they can from drum corps.

How about doing something original. How about traditional? I would love to see a hs marching band do an old school show.

How about setting some educational requirements to be included in the shows. Then the competitors can be judged on their execution of the requirements. Blah, blah, blah.

I've thought about marching band a lot. Too much. Now I've vented. Thank you.

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[Mary Ann]

But the software (?) looks interesting to me and I'd be interested in who wrote it, because that's where the knowledge came from, having had both a Lawson mouthpiece and bell make noticeable significant changes to my Schmid horn's sound, response, intonation, and slotting.

Read the "about us" https://www.artim.at/en/about-us/
and https://www.widholm.at/innovationen_en/

I read a great deal of it -- fascinating. I understand that the later versions of the software can make "suggestions" to improve the outcome? I have always wondered how Walter Lawson did what he did, and maybe he had access to something like this. I always considered him brilliant (and a very nice man too.)

Not really on topic but I always have wanted the opportunity to spend some time with a Vienna horn, the "horn sound of all horn sounds." I have the VIenna horns CD and compare it (and its cover) with the London Horn Sound CD. Different beasts.

[bloke]

I think the computer program is really interesting, though it's not something that I would personally purchase. If we're talking across three topics which are bell tapers, computer programs that can figure them out, and marching contras, I'd like to hear a marching contra with a Meinl-Weston 97 bell on it. (POW !!! )

semi-on-topic comment:

A genuine one-piece upright 100-year-old or more Conn Orchestra Grand bell makes those instruments sound a lot to me like a Rudy Meinl 5/4. I'm thinking the extra one inch or so of pancake radius really doesn't do much of anything. The upper part of the bell taper on those is not as large as the typical CSO York 6/4 knockoff, and I suspect that has a lot to do with it. The computer program might show me to be insightful (in this very limited subtopical portion of this topic), or it might (and more likely) show me to be a fool.

[catgrowlB]

They are king something marching tubas. They are huge. Much bigger than the G contras I marched with.

On the field, outdoors, I would much rather have more clarity and punch than tone color. Low brass always sounds like mud to me when I'm in the stands.

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I think the larger bell contras are a good thing. You can still get plenty of punch and clarity with larger bell contras and sousas. And still retain warmth and richness.

I remember back in my high school days (1990s), my band director was talking about how good the top Drum Corps were. Listening to some of their recordings at the time, I wasn't particularly impressed with the contra sound I heard. They sounded grunty/farty, not warm or rich enough for my tastes.
More modern contras are larger, pitched in BBb and have larger bells and, imo, sound much better than those old GG contras.

Well-played, sousas sound the best outside on the field. And that includes all contras, marching tubas, and even helicons.

[catgrowlB]

A genuine one-piece upright 100-year-old or more Conn Orchestra Grand bell makes those instruments sound a lot to me like a Rudy Meinl 5/4. I'm thinking the extra one inch or so of pancake radius really doesn't do much of anything. The upper part of the bell taper on those is not as large as the typical CSO York 6/4 knockoff, and I suspect that has a lot to do with it. The computer program might show me to be insightful (in this very limited subtopical portion of this topic), or it might (and more likely) show me to be a fool.

I'd most likely prefer that old big Conn Orchestra Grand BBb over any 6/4 York CC in a large wind band/concert band, and possibly orchestra. Those old Conn tubas have a considerably darker sound profile than the various York tubas. Much more fundamental gives a more string bass section quality sound out in the audience. Honestly not many bands these days have a dark enough tuba sound. Big and loud, yes, but dark enough, not really. Bring back the midnight dark band tuba sound that was felt as much as heard