Your thoughts on a Miraphone 186-4U BBb tuba

[TriStateFans]

A reputable source has one nearby in excellent condition for sub-$5k. I've been playing for a 18-months and am thinking upgrade from my entry-level Chinese horn (a surprisingly nice Dillon student horn).

My question is if any of you good folks have experience with this Miraphone and your thoughts, good or bad.

Even though my current horn blows freely and is quite playable the sound, it's a $1200 Chinese tuba and sounds like one. OK... but...

I'm seeking better playability, a bigger fuller sound, to transition to reliable well-made rotor valves and upgrade my playing experince.

Thoughts pro or con?

[Paulver]

I have one that was made in 1970. Love it. It's now at the point where it needs a bit of work done on it, but I enjoy playing it. Looking forward to having the work done, then seeing how it plays after that.

[arpthark]

Miraphones in general are fantastic and the 186 BBb is pretty much the de facto BBb tuba. They are very consistent. The older smaller bell versions like this one are in general very nice.

Take care that this one wasn't inexpertly refurbished. I have seen some nice looking old Miraphones that had shot valves.

To me, high $4xxx range seems just a bit high for a BBb of that vintage, but if it's really as nice as claimed and the valves are good, it may be worth it. "A good deal" will likely always come around, but people pay the price they pay when they see the thing they want.

The quality difference upgrade will be noticeable, and it will last forever, and people will be willing to work on it, and you can probably source parts easier than Jin Bao.

Just my two cents of speculation.

[TriStateFans]

Take care that this one wasn't inexpertly refurbished. I have seen some nice looking old Miraphones that had shot valves.

To me, high $4xxx range seems just a bit high for a BBb of that vintage, but if it's really as nice as claimed and the valves are good, it may be worth it. "A good deal" will likely always come around, but people pay the price they pay when they see the thing they want.

Good advice, I do however trust it's sourcing. Thanks for pointing it out, though, makes a lot of sense!

[gocsick]

I bought a used one for my son when he got serious about playing. Figured it could be a forever tuba for him if he chose not to study tuba at University.... or could be sold, traded in as part of a CC purchase if he did.... or sold for what I paid for it if he quit.

It is a great tuba. Better intonation than my Meinl Weston Model 20.. never have to pull slides except down really low. On balance I like the tone on the MW a little better though.

[bloke]

It's your $5,000, and the freak jury here will not be investing a nickel. Before all the hyperinflation, that would have been considered a pretty high price for a used one, but if it's a cream puff, that's half of the cost of a new one. If it's a cream puff with a 16 and a half inch - and I owned it, I wouldn't sell it for any less than that.
Some of them are absolutely amazing, but they're all good. I wouldn't buy any used tuba mail order. If you can get there in two days by car, I'd go have a look at it (rather than polling the freak jury) and - if it meets your expectations - make your best deal. Sometimes, it's better to do the negotiating before doing the driving, in other words, "If I like this tuba and I offer you such and such amount of money, would you accept that amount?"

[TriStateFans]

It's your $5,000, and the freak jury here will not be investing a nickel. Before all the hyperinflation, that would have been considered a pretty high price for a used one, but if it's a cream puff, that's half of the cost of a new one. If it's a cream puff with a 16 and a half inch - and I owned it, I wouldn't sell it for any less than that.
Some of them are absolutely amazing, but they're all good. I wouldn't buy any used tuba mail order...

Thank you! I hear what you are saying. Condition aside, I'm mostly curious if the horn it's self is a good-un, sounds like the design is.

[arpthark]

Condition aside, I'm mostly curious if the horn it's self is a good-un, sounds like the design is.

I don't think it would be a stretch to call it the most popular European tuba in the world. Not that popularity is necessarily a sign of how good something is, but it is one measure of success.

[MiBrassFS]

The 186 is one of the industry standards. That said…

Play it and then decide if it is really an improvement for you at this moment.

Once that money is spent, it is gone.

[Mary Ann]

Play test. Even when I had only been playing for that amount of time, I could tell the difference between average and superior. I would think you can too.

[acemorgan]

Seems a bit pricey. I'm guessing this is a music store offer? Take some time and you might find a private seller at a better price.

There is no arguing the virtues of a Mirafone 186. I played one for a long time and sold it for just under $2k a few years ago. Not showroom appearance, but beautiful to play.

Thus spake the "freak jury."

[arpthark]

Seems a bit pricey. I'm guessing this is a music store offer? Take some time and you might find a private seller at a better price.

There is no arguing the virtues of a Mirafone 186. I played one for a long time and sold it for just under $2k a few years ago. Not showroom appearance, but beautiful to play.

Thus spake the "freak jury."

I chatted a bit with the potential buyer and it's from a place in Iowa which makes me walk back my initial comments about pricing. If anyone knows this particular place in Iowa and the meticulous and reputable nature of their business, you can probably bet it's priced right.

[bloke]

You're probably talking about a good repair guy who is selling it. That's my best guess.
Whether it's an angel or the devil selling something, you're not buying the angel or devil; you're buying the thing they're selling. It's up to the buyer to decide whether or not the thing they're buying is a super bargain, roughly worth the money, or something whereby - were they to resell it - they wouldn't lose too much money.

Please (again) understand that I am separating sellers from the things they are selling. I know some people here don't do that, or can't do that, or whatever.

I do know that - these days - most people purchase pictures, and pretty instruments sell more easily than ugly ones. Anyone who says "I only care about the sound" is probably someone who damaged their instrument and it ended up being a lot of uglier after it was repaired. Further, they aren't saying whether or not they cared about things other than the sound prior to damaging their instrument.

Look. I haven't seen the ad, the previous person who posted strongly hinted at who's selling it. Most of these instruments are really good - unless they are mechanically worn out, had the crap polished out of them in a refinishing job, or both. I'm not going to go attempt to find the ad. I'm not going to look at the pictures, and I'm not going to make a value judgment based on the pictures. It's always best for buyers to put their eyes on the actual merchandise, and not just on photographs. Once their eyes have been on the merchandise, it's then time to demo it and see how and if it works. After that, it's time to make a deal or walk away.

bloke "A seller with a great reputation is a very good factor in a sale, but the merchandise itself has no reputation until the buyer gives it a really good inspection... and one last thing: I never give a damn about an instrument's provenance. I'm the one who's going to create that, if I decide to buy it."

[tofu]

Well if it’s the one Lee S. is selling for $4650 the OP forgot to mention that price also includes a Reunion Blues gig bag - those by themselves these days go for $600. That horn looks to be in terrific shape. I will also say to the OP if we are talking about the above seller and horn I’ve done a lot of business with him and if there was anybody in the music business whose word I would take on face value it’s that guy. He knows his stuff, is a top notch instrument repair person, builds by hand his own line of tubas and is an excellent tuba player to boot. This guy knows tubas. If you can I would highly recommend you take a trip out there. It’s in the middle of lovely farm country (and it’s located on his wife’s legacy farm as well). It’s easy to reach by car from Chicago and close to the Quad Cities (John Deere is located 20 miles away) so if you had to you could fly in. The great thing about playing a horn in person is you can quickly ascertain how you like it. And Lee always has a bunch of other horns to try. That can help give you perspective on the 186 you are interested in as well as possible alternative horns. Lee is a square shooter and he won’t sell you a horn at an inflated price. I will also mention the gig bag mentioned above is for many people by far and away the best bag. Plus currently it takes a good amount of time to get a new one and this one looks to be a specific 186 bag. Based on the photos, the fact that the RB bag is included and my own history with the seller (if it is the one mentioned above) is that is an excellent deal. You can’t go wrong with a 186 - it has been the standard for decades. Even better if it’s not the horn for you or you decided to go in a different direction - you will have no trouble selling it as there is always a market demand for 186s. And new ones are double what this one is priced at and that’s without the gig bag.

[Paulver]

Yep!. It appears to be Lee who's selling it. I haven't been to his place yet, but I've talked with him via phone and texting. I definitely would have no issue with trusting him, his work, or his opinion.

Go play the horn and make your decision.
Enjoy!

[MiBrassFS]

Not buying the seller is a valid sentiment.

There are sellers I avoid for commonly available items because of known practices and I prefer to not support their approach to business. If there is something I’m interested in obtaining and it’s unavailable through other sources, I consider the situation and weigh desire for the item versus distaste for seller. Other’s opinions of item or seller bear little influence on the decision. On some things, I have a very long memory.

Again, playing it and deciding are my best recommendations.

[bloke]

One of the best tubas I ever bought for myself was from a college student who overrepresented its condition. I think they might have been afraid to face me because they sent their girlfriend to meet me, instead of facing me themselves. It had dents in it that they didn't discuss previously and the valves didn't work. I had driven 400 miles to look at it.

The dents were completely removable by me in a matter of an hour and I could make the valves work perfectly and about the same amount of time. She wasn't in a position to negotiate the price. I just bought it and went home. My opinion of the seller was low, but but so what? I got a great instrument. Two hours after I messed with it it was in the condition that I hoped it was in when I bought it, and as far as I was concerned after buying it, the seller didn't even exist. Only the tuba existed.

To summarize, I didn't let being annoyed or being proud get in the way of getting something really good for myself. Again, it's not the seller. It's what the seller is selling.

[Mary Ann]

That actually is helpful today. I'm trying to decide whether to buy an overpriced used vehicle that is a about 95% of what I want. 2015, and possible that I can shut off the very little wifi it has. The price has me mad at the seller, but it's unlikely that I will find another this close to what I want. And this particular place will let me bring it back for a full refund within a few days as long as it hasn't been driven more than 1000 miles, or damaged. I'd expect it to last me the rest of my cat-owning driving life.

[TriStateFans]

You all have figured out the reputable seller, it's on hold for me to go try out in a couple of weeks by appointment. I only live about 3 hours drive from him, so it's nothing more than reasonable weekend drive. I'll play the horn first and see if it fits me and what I am looking for. And yes, it comes with a very nice case making the actual horn value closer to $4K ish.

I've purchase two other tubas there (and, surprisingly, a silver-plated Conn Melophonium) and have spent a bit of time with him. Good man. But yes, it's about the horn not the seller. But the seller does matter.

[bloke]

That actually is helpful today. I'm trying to decide whether to buy an overpriced used vehicle that is a about 95% of what I want. 2015, and possible that I can shut off the very little wifi it has. The price has me mad at the seller, but it's unlikely that I will find another this close to what I want. And this particular place will let me bring it back for a full refund within a few days as long as it hasn't been driven more than 1000 miles, or damaged. I'd expect it to last me the rest of my cat-owning driving life.

It's really interesting that you posted this, because I watched a "reel" (linked to book-o'-faces) whereby a widely-trusted house inspector (NOT a house salesman) encouraged those watching to not pass up the superb deal in favor of waiting for the perfect deal.

Fix this/Change that/Grow accustomed to the-other...Be happy.

some (most?) of my own requirements: (as if anyone else here gives a crap)
- Toyota (ok...or reluctantly Honda or Subaru...but I'd really need to know more about a particular Subaru or even a particular Honda)
- not many more than 100K miles
- four-digit price
- smaller-ish higher mpg car
- absolutely no hybrid or all-battery cars
- manual transmission
- air-conditioning
- air can be busted, as long as no under-dash leaks and price allows for repair + repair nuisance
- clutch can be worn out as long as the price reflects that as well (A typical dumb-ass can wear out a clutch in fewer than 20K miles, so a worn-out clutch in no way necessarily reflects negatively on any other aspect of a car.)
- minimally: an AM radio, but - if not - whatever (I very rarely assault myself with "tunes"..."Tunes" remind me too much of work.)

Prior to reaching "old", I had a last-year of the ORIGINAL style of the Taurus SHO. By then, they had worked out the bugs. Rather than Ford, it was actually a YAMAHA car (yes, really: in disguise). That was a fabulous car. I later gave it to my daughter, who ALSO drove it way too fast.

mine was this color:



bloke "as a conservative in all things, never exceeded 160 mph in that car"
The top speed of the 1995 Ford Taurus SHO is 144 miles per hour (but that's without swapping out the top speed limiter chip ). It can accelerate from 0 to 60 miles per hour in less than 7 seconds.