What makes the sound?

[Mary Ann]

I will re-iterate too, just this once (ha) for hopefully some concept of clarity: it is the size of the hole in your face that is what works. If it weren't the size then you wouldn't need lips in the cup doing anything at all, and you could just vary air speed or something like that. Yes there is vibrating going on, but it's not the same as a free buzz producing a clear pitch, no matter what some of the famous horn teachers say. (And they do not succeed with all students, either.)

I enjoy demonstrating to high brass players how I play my first note of the day, which on the NS is always the open Eb below the staff. I blast the note, freeze my face, turn to the side and blow exactly the same way; there is a "hint" of the pitch but that's all. I so clearly am not making a "buzz" and my lips are pooched out, not formed into the shape I'd have to use to make a free buzz sound on that note.

Most of you are on this same page and we are the ones who like to figure out what we do, and it doesn't really matter unless you are trying to teach someone else, and then it does matter. You don't have to be particularly good to have figured this out, either, but if you have figured it out you'll be better than if you haven't.

[bloke]

And yes, Mr Louis Armstrong had a huge dent in his face from his mouthpiece. I have to believe that this resulted from mashing his instrument into his face when he was first learning to play. All of the damage outlined in CK's link surely was and can be caused by doing that.

[TheDoctor]

How does a tuba (or other brass instrument) make a sound?

First ya make a fart noise into the twisty brass tubes, then the noise gets embiggened somewhere inside, and you get tuba noise.
That’s about as far as my knowledge goes.

[arpthark]

In what unit is "power" measured here?

[bloke]

In what unit is "power" measured here?

There you go again, questioning The Science.

[donn]

Y'all are going to trigger the people who believe that a clarinet reed is actually thumping against the tip of the mouthpiece, the blades of a bassoon reed actually hit each other at the tip over and over

That would include physicists and the like. The reed phenomenon is described with the verb "beat", and while it isn't so characteristic on the clarinet, it's common on the saxophone and typical on double reed instruments. The reed opens and closes due to the same kind of vibrating air column, like lips in a brass mouthpiece, and it works the same when the reed fully closes as when it doesn't - the air column pushes it back open, whether it was closed all the way or part of the way makes no difference. If you blow too much air at it, you can stick it shut - not really relevant.

In the discussion that I imagine this refers to, Doug Elliott illustrated brass players' lips closing, all the way, with high speed photographs. Maybe it happens more with trombone than tuba, only with some players, who knows, but his opinion at the time was that we all close, whether we feel it or not.

Does it matter? No. I mean, if you have a characteristic sound, it could have something to do with whether your lips close, or how long they stay closed during the cycle. Somewhat like the woodwinds, where the non-beating soft tone is fairly different, not just softer. But in terms of the acoustic principles, whether your lips close or not is immaterial.

[bloke]

Stick the key in, turn it, and out comes the nonsense.
An interesting study would involve polling people's beliefs, and then recording their playing.
Defining "science" as "because an authority figure says so, and they did a really good job of convincing me" is how the Catholic Church defined "science" through and beyond Galileo's time. I don't view that as a particularly straight path towards the truth or what is.

"Science" and "what is" are not synonyms. The definition of "science" is "the seeking of what is".

[bloke]

The problem with "scientists" is that too many of them embrace/group-think "The Science" rather than actually being scientists (who always understand that not everything is "settled", and that actual truth and those things which actually are cannot be determined by some sort of group-think vote or a "consensus"). Things which are, are going to be, and cannot be changed by what men (regardless of the credentials they have awarded themselves) believe or wish them to be.

Those who believe that the lips rattle against each other (even when we spread them well over a quarter of an inch apart to execute very low fortissimo frequencies), that single reeds rattle against the tips of their mouthpieces, and that bassoon and oboe double reeds rattle against each other (the bassoon reed thing really prompting me to smh), always avoid the additional example that I offer of the jaw harp's suspended spring steel reed, which obviously doesn't touch anything. When it does touch something (due to someone biting the frame too hard), the sound becomes uncharacteristic or else stops completely.

It always seems that the same people who believe in the rattling of these things (rather than the free vibration of them) causing the sound are the same people who believe that humans releasing carbon into the atmosphere is leading to the end of the world, ie. yet another example of "The Science" than science (again: much like "The Science" dictated by the Church during the Dark Ages).

Even piano/guitar strings, timpani heads, and such - once set into motion - vibrate freely, and are not continuously whacking themselves against other things. Lips and reeds (small, wide, and short) aren't as prone to vibrating as are drum heads and strings, thus - rather than being set in motion by a single strike - require continuously being stimulated by a stream of air, in order to continue to vibrate freely.

Science can (but doesn't always) lead to discovery of that which is. "The Science" (again) is what the Church dictated during the Dark Ages.

bloke "It's still sort of early - and I've only had one cup of coffee, but this is the best troll that I could manage this early in the day."

[donn]

No one but you says "rattling." That sound you're hearing there isn't coming from the computer.

Try to hold these two thoughts in your mind at the same time, as a prerequisite for further discussion:

Wind instrument tone generators like lips and reeds ...

• may touch (or strike)
• do not generate tone by striking

[bloke]

If those "may" be your strategies for playing tuba and sax, please don't send me recordings (although I wouldn't expect to hear much sound recorded on them).

For my original-very-leaky-pads Buescher bass sax, I ordered (just for the time being) a VERY soft Légère reed (in order to be able to blow past all the leaks, and just mess around with it a little bit - prior to restoration and all new pads with no leaks).
The reed is so very soft that - unless I take particular care - the tip of the reed might barely touch the tip of the mouthpiece. Guess what happens then...

[donn]

The reed opens and closes due to the same kind of vibrating air column, like lips in a brass mouthpiece, and it works the same when the reed fully closes as when it doesn't - the air column pushes it back open, whether it was closed all the way or part of the way makes no difference. If you blow too much air at it, you can stick it shut - not really relevant.

... And of course the softer the reed (and the closer the facing), the more likely that problem.

Whether the lips/reed touch, has nothing to do with how much sound comes out. It doesn't generate the tone. It isn't a strategy, it's just what happens with wind instrument tone generators.

[bloke]

The first sound is my trying to make a fart sound with my lips, attempting to jam my lips together, which allows them to touch (when I'm not managing to blow them back apart). The sound starts and stops. As my air manages to blow my lips apart, I get a very restricted and dampened vibration, but - as soon as I overpower the air so that my lips can again touch - the sound stops or jumps.

The second sound is me holding my lips apart from each other in an "embouchure", and allowing them to vibrate freely and individually - as does a bassoon reed.

With both tacks (whether or not you might believe me) I was attempting to get the best sound I could manage to get.

I told Mrs. bloke - a bassoonist - that some people believe that the tips of bassoons' double reeds touch each other in-order-to/when make the sound. She laughed.

[arpthark]

Not stepping on either side of this since I am not even really sure what I am seeing here, but here it is, for discussion's sake:

[donn]

And for the jaw harp, if the frame isn't touching a solid object it will not produce any sound.
So the frame against the teeth, the lips on the frame and the tongue to the frame. A lot of touching going around.
For string instruments, a true freely string would be not touching the instrument on both ends. Try getting sound now.

Yes, this is a good point, that these instruments are going to be rather useless analogies because the tone generation is so different - soundboards etc. To be clear, it just doesn't have much of anything to do with wind instruments. Touching / not touching, is not a real issue here, with the fundamental mechanics of wind instrument tone generation.

[bloke]

Piano and guitar strings are supported at both ends (by bone/plastic or felt) yet they don't bang against anything (once set into motion) in order to continue to sound. Violinists can initiate sounds on their strings (supported by wood at both ends) by plucking as well, but - mostly - very gently draw a bow (something to stimulate vibration, as a substitute for air against a reed or an embouchure) so that the vibration is sustained - rather than dying away. btw...The embouchure is also quite well-attached to the human body (which is pretty gooshy, and not particularly resonant), yet (just as with strings and reeds) the embouchure lips do not beat against each other nor against anything resembling a fingerboard or a mouthpiece tip.

As - seemingly - it has finally occurred to you that a steel jaw harp reed is an undeniable example of a reed that NEVER beats against anything - with you resorting to "It's hooked to a frame" - reminds me of this satire:





Lips (more flexible than reeds or even strings) can come very close (particularly when vibrating at higher frequencies, as - being part of the human anatomy - it's possible for a human to widen or narrow the space between them), but that's all that happens. "Motorboating" lips (ie. "making a fart sound" into the mouthpiece by forcing the lips to hit against each other) will only result in the "fighting itself" noise heard in my first example. The fact that the lips' spacing can be changed by the player is the reason why brass instruments can often access a wider frequency range than can woodwinds (even though woodwinds manage to access - typically - three or four overtones, and can shorten and lengthen their instruments to a greater percentage than can happen with brass instruments. Oboe reed blades are set remarkably close to each other as well (nearly microscopically close), but also do not whack against each other when air stimulates them to vibrate in unison.

Were I to allow my lips to touch each other when playing (re: demonstration), that would certainly define the end of anyone paying me to do it.
again: If this is how you or anyone else chooses to approach/strategize their playing, that's your/their business. Earlier, you stated that it doesn't make any difference what people believe. I say that it really doesn't make any difference whether people are or are not successful in regards to freely vibrating their lips - to stimulate the vibration of an air column within a brass instrument. ie. "Who cares? YET what is, is."

[bloke]

At the risk of (and the responses are so nonsensical that I have begun to suspect it) being trolled myself, I'm out. There's no possible way to make this more clear, and - the clearer I make it - the more nonsense, as well as attempts at changing the subject (such as "the string's vibration causes the thin hollow box to vibrate" - well duh) - are offered in response.

[donn]

Strings do bang against the wood on both ends, you can easily feel the vibration in the wood.

Well, not really, there isn't anything "banging" except in someone's head.

I can only guess what really happens in the air column in wind instruments, but I doubt "closed pipe" is really what we're looking for. To me that brings up a different air column resonance that favors odd partials (the clarinet), and it doesn't make sense that the brass instrument would go there. To me it seems more likely that it's just a side effect, when the pressure balance during the vibration cycle period goes under some threshold. If it didn't happen - if you had a very strong reed, or for that matter if you were playing clarinet - you'd still get sound, but without the kind of square wave effect from the threshold cutoff. The sound doesn't depend on striking. That's just my idea.

Guitar, jaw harp etc. have different tone production mechanics and simply are not going to shed any light on this, at all. It's true that they don't produce tone by striking; nor does the tuba or the saxophone, though, so this doesn't even amount to a straw man argument.

[bloke]

You're trolling.

I don't need a presumed "scientist" to inform me as to what I'm causing to occur (no hidden internal organs/tissues, but) right on the outside of my own body, and nor what other - when attempted - fails.

[bloke]

My brother (retired from ASACE) knows all of those jokes.

They design all of that stuff that makes the out-in-the-world people (who are assigned to jobs of building/servicing their designs) sigh, and put so many automobiles on The Car Wizard's "don't EVER buy one of these" list.




(I tend to suspect that which confuses many is that their lips won't easily vibrate when - simply - blowing out into open space, so they mash their lips together to make some sort of vibrating frequency noise (lips-hitting-lips). When the resistance (of a sealed venturi - ie. with all of the air directed through the venturi) is placed in front of their lips, suddenly the air flow will easily allow the lips to - individually, at the same frequency - vibrate. I can manage to get mine to individually vibrate - albeit not very well - at higher frequencies - with no air seal and no venturi, and others can likely manage this better than I can, but - WITH the air seal and venturi - it happens on its own - given any proper balance of air pressure and spacing between the lips...or - paraphrased - "size of the hole made by the mouth" as Mary Ann refers to it. Again, when playing pitches such as those four ledger lines below the bass clef at a strong fortissimo - with my lips somewhere between 1/4th of an inch to 5/16ths of an inch apart - there's just no opportunity for them to make contact with each other...YET the pitch sounds, and quite loudly/clearly.)

bloke "who continues to allow himself to be trolled, as I suspect these people know better"

[bloke]

It's just not as hard as some people think it is
Check out the very last guy who understands physics:

https://www.facebook.com/maxwristmoto/v ... 7S9Ucbxw6v