What makes the sound?

[peterbas]

I don’t think about my lips when I play or think about embouchure nor do I teach it. Then again, I’m rooted in Jacobs/Rocco pedagogy.

If everyone participating in this thread put the same amount of time spent in they spent on this thread into developing their sound, a few more people than the “Tuba God” might have a world class sound

Since most of us are doing this for a hobby, they don't have that much time to spend.
You don't get an engineering degree without spending ample time studying.
In fact, are line of work changes so rapidly we still need to spend a bunch of hours just to keep up.
We can't use equipment that is a hundred years old or do repair work old style.
And where do you think all the latest improvements came from...

[peterbas]

I have a “double buzz.” I am generating two waves, but they are different and out of phase. Sometimes slightly out of phase, sometimes completely out of phase. This results in varying degrees of severity.

Any and all are invited to address and explain this phenomenon from your point of view.

And how did you measure the waves being out of phase? Is there any synchronicity with the phases of the moon, if so you should try to adjust the placement of the chair so you are sitting perpendicular to the moon that will lower the moon's gravity pull on your lips.

[donn]

I've been assuming he really meant that the buzzes are not the same pitch. Other than that, not much help here - I could surf the web, or just guess, but in this exhaustive discussion we haven't gotten around to the really key question of how the lips really do start and maintain an air column vibrating at a particular pitch. We've been referring to the embouchuire as a hole, but it's a little more complicated than that. If there musculature or tissue has some irregularities due to injury or something .... oops, I'm guessing.

[MiBrassFS]

Mine were manufactured questions meant to redirect the nonsense in this thread.

“Obviously, I flew too low.”

[peterbas]

You give it a try, but let my response give you a hint of the level needed.

[russiantuba]

I don’t think about my lips when I play or think about embouchure nor do I teach it. Then again, I’m rooted in Jacobs/Rocco pedagogy.

If everyone participating in this thread put the same amount of time spent in they spent on this thread into developing their sound, a few more people than the “Tuba God” might have a world class sound

Since most of us are doing this for a hobby, they don't have that much time to spend.
You don't get an engineering degree without spending ample time studying.
In fact, are line of work changes so rapidly we still need to spend a bunch of hours just to keep up.
We can't use equipment that is a hundred years old or do repair work old style.
And where do you think all the latest improvements came from...

You obviously don’t catch the joke. Guess the old days of these forums are dying. This was before my time but has been brought up over the years.

Since you are a hobbyist, I would say spending time making music would be beneficial than the over-analysis. But to each their own.

And I’ve been watching YouTube videos on ancient cultures and how modern science doesn’t explain some of their innovations and advancements and how we are looking at ancient civilizations to learn about engineering, medical, and other scientific advancements.

I just cooked part of my breakfast in a microwave that has had daily use since 1988, while for offices/classrooms, we have bought multiple newer microwaves. I don’t care about the latest advances, I would rather use this outdated microwave that works and lasts than the newest equipment that dies after 5 uses.

[Mary Ann]

I have a “double buzz.” I am generating two waves, but they are different and out of phase. Sometimes slightly out of phase, sometimes completely out of phase. This results in varying degrees of severity.

Any and all are invited to address and explain this phenomenon from your point of view.

Not responding to the discussion but if this really is a question, double buzz problems are easily solved by changing the leadpipe angle. Tip slowly up or down until the double buzz goes away. That simple. TFFJ now has a new thing to argue about. I have fixed more than one person on the spot this way, and fixed my own "embouchure problems" on the Hagen this way once I realized leadpipe angle was the problem.

[bloke]

I fix double buzzes by taking a short break (days) from playing, which allows me to regain lost strength (ie. fatigue/too much playing).
I've also (again, stirring the pot) caught myself allowing my lips to touch - which can also trigger them. I open the spacing wider, adjust the air, and they quit (again: unless fatigue is the main factor).

I haven't had this problem in several years, but it's not that I don't expect it to probably come back.

[arpthark]

To add to the mix, I will occasionally get a double buzz on (only) Bb above the staff on small-bore trombones and baritones, but never on larger bore euph, trombones or tuba.

That is ususally correlated with playing loud/high with completely cold chops, so there's probably some lip swelling involved as a factor.

I rarely practice tuba these days, and almost never practice any of the above instruments, so I'm sure a more methodical approach could sort it out if I ever cared to fix it, but I ain't got time for that.
_______

(sidebar: I did develop a persistent double buzz when I was studying tuba in college and attempted to brute force fix it, when I should have just taken several weeks off, and that contributed to a whole slew of other infirmities that arose in my playing that I won't get into (and that I am only now really getting over some 13 years later). I hesitate to call it dystonia, but it was a lot of weird sh!t happening at the same time and probably neuro/psychological in nature.)

[bloke]

To add to the mix, I will occasionally get a double buzz on (only) Bb above the staff on small-bore trombones and baritones, but never on larger bore euph, trombones or tuba.

That is ususally correlated with playing loud/high with completely cold chops, so there's probably some lip swelling involved as a factor.

I rarely practice tuba these days, and almost never practice any of the above instruments, so I'm sure a more methodical approach could sort it out if I ever cared to fix it, but I ain't got time for that.
_______

(sidebar: I did develop a persistent double buzz when I was studying tuba in college and attempted to brute force fix it, when I should have just taken several weeks off, and that contributed to a whole slew of other infirmities that arose in my playing that I won't get into (and that I am only now really getting over some 13 years later). I hesitate to call it dystonia, but it was a lot of weird sh!t happening at the same time and probably neuro/psychological in nature.)

@arpthark
I don't know how long you've been reading these things, but - at the former eLocation - a former widely known Midwestern tuba salesman would speak up about this and attempt to tutor people on how to fix it with practicing, to which I raised my bushy-were-they-not-trimmed eyebrows... but we all have our own beliefs regarding what is and what isn't, don't we?

Muscling through this issue sort of reminds me of attempting to step up one's jogging routine to fix a broken leg...

...but knowitallism is not uncommon:
I can think of a bloke who is pretty stubborn about believing he knows some things because he's paid to do them, and another fellow who is pretty stubborn about things because he believes that he and others have analyzed them as engineers, and he can supply footnotes. ...Now those are a couple of stubborn people.
At least one of them, though, is constantly chuckling.

[MiBrassFS]

I have a “double buzz.” I am generating two waves, but they are different and out of phase. Sometimes slightly out of phase, sometimes completely out of phase. This results in varying degrees of severity.

Any and all are invited to address and explain this phenomenon from your point of view.

Not responding to the discussion but if this really is a question, double buzz problems are easily solved by changing the leadpipe angle. Tip slowly up or down until the double buzz goes away. That simple. TFFJ now has a new thing to argue about. I have fixed more than one person on the spot this way, and fixed my own "embouchure problems" on the Hagen this way once I realized leadpipe angle was the problem.

No, this was not a real question. It was an attempt at a redirect to gets the cats to stops fighting by making them direct their attention elsewhere. Didn’t work. They’re insistent. That’ll learn me…

[peterbas]

I don’t think about my lips when I play or think about embouchure nor do I teach it. Then again, I’m rooted in Jacobs/Rocco pedagogy.

If everyone participating in this thread put the same amount of time spent in they spent on this thread into developing their sound, a few more people than the “Tuba God” might have a world class sound

Since most of us are doing this for a hobby, they don't have that much time to spend.
You don't get an engineering degree without spending ample time studying.
In fact, are line of work changes so rapidly we still need to spend a bunch of hours just to keep up.
We can't use equipment that is a hundred years old or do repair work old style.
And where do you think all the latest improvements came from...

You obviously don’t catch the joke. Guess the old days of these forums are dying. This was before my time but has been brought up over the years.

Since you are a hobbyist, I would say spending time making music would be beneficial than the over-analysis. But to each their own.

And I’ve been watching YouTube videos on ancient cultures and how modern science doesn’t explain some of their innovations and advancements and how we are looking at ancient civilizations to learn about engineering, medical, and other scientific advancements.

I just cooked part of my breakfast in a microwave that has had daily use since 1988, while for offices/classrooms, we have bought multiple newer microwaves. I don’t care about the latest advances, I would rather use this outdated microwave that works and lasts than the newest equipment that dies after 5 uses.

Ahhh, a Bloke-kind-of joke.
I did find the call on expertise rather disturbing, makes me thinking of all the stories I've read about dictatorial conductors.

Don't see the overanalysis, we are only discussing the elementary workings of brass instruments presented by the little latest research.
And the only exception being @Donn, nobody even bothered to read or take a good look at the info presented.
Tech is also a hobby, not solely a profession.

And what about over-analysis in the music, Bach wrote a lot of music but 300 years of analysing his work probably fills a small library.

I see you are using very recently developed types of tuba, so you don't seem to mind advancement here. And rightfully so since it is your profession.

They can make today's microwaves as good and better than your 1988 model, but that would suit today's throw-away economics. It has nothing to do with technical incompetence.

[peterbas]

Muscling through this issue sort of reminds me of attempting to step up one's jogging routine to fix a broken leg...

...but knowitallism is not uncommon:
I can think of a bloke who is pretty stubborn about believing he knows some things because he's paid to do them, and another fellow who is pretty stubborn about things because he believes that he and others have analyzed them as engineers, and he can supply footnotes. ...Now those are a couple of stubborn people.
At least one of them, though, is constantly chuckling.

Luckily, there arent any conspiracy nuts on this board that think that others or here to get them.

Seriously, you two guys are pm-ing each other and coordinating your trolls, yes?

Also:
I've heard that people who deal in "engineering" and "science" stuff - who encounter others who disagree with their observations - often embrace a hobby of (regardless of what actually is - which isn't the point) attempting to demonstrate that those - who disagree with their findings - are foolish or stupid...(again: a whole bunch like the totalitarian/equal distribution/keynesian -vs- libertarian/free-market/hayekian arguments on social media). I'll READILY ADMIT that I am both foolish AND stupid, if that's what y'all are attempting to pull off.

[russiantuba]

Since most of us are doing this for a hobby, they don't have that much time to spend.
You don't get an engineering degree without spending ample time studying.
In fact, are line of work changes so rapidly we still need to spend a bunch of hours just to keep up.
We can't use equipment that is a hundred years old or do repair work old style.
And where do you think all the latest improvements came from...

You obviously don’t catch the joke. Guess the old days of these forums are dying. This was before my time but has been brought up over the years.

Since you are a hobbyist, I would say spending time making music would be beneficial than the over-analysis. But to each their own.

And I’ve been watching YouTube videos on ancient cultures and how modern science doesn’t explain some of their innovations and advancements and how we are looking at ancient civilizations to learn about engineering, medical, and other scientific advancements.

I just cooked part of my breakfast in a microwave that has had daily use since 1988, while for offices/classrooms, we have bought multiple newer microwaves. I don’t care about the latest advances, I would rather use this outdated microwave that works and lasts than the newest equipment that dies after 5 uses.

Ahhh, a Bloke-kind-of joke.
I did find the call on expertise rather disturbing, makes me thinking of all the stories I've read about dictatorial conductors.

Don't see the overanalysis, we are only discussing the elementary workings of brass instruments presented by the little latest research.
And the only exception being @Donn, nobody even bothered to read or take a good look at the info presented.
Tech is also a hobby, not solely a profession.

And what about over-analysis in the music, Bach wrote a lot of music but 300 years of analysing his work probably fills a small library.

I see you are using very recently developed types of tuba, so you don't seem to mind advancement here. And rightfully so since it is your profession.

They can make today's microwaves as good and better than your 1988 model, but that would suit today's throw-away economics. It has nothing to do with technical incompetence.

So houses are made for the throw away economy? My house is 125 years old and is doing better than lots of newer builds on build quality. Engineering might be better in design, but construction isn’t! I guess you could say the same about tubas. A certain 6/4 CC made in China apparently has the top engineering behind it, surprising to me all the ones I’ve played are like garbage. Maybe I just need to play a good one. My horns were designed 20+ years ago.

As a professional in music, I seriously don’t care about the physics. A good sound is a good sound. Look at the Phil Farkas book on embouchures. The best players had the worst embouchures.

I guess this only matters when you have robots playing trumpet (check out the YouTube videos).

[humBell]

90odd posts in less than a week, and i ain't amongst them? I been slipping. (Also, sometimes a sign it'll get locked...)

In response to the subject (without getting distracted yet by the content, i'll ask "What sound?" before i try to answer, but just 'cause i like the works of Phil Ochs, i'll let him pose the question...

[donn]

My house is 125 years old and is doing better than lots of newer builds on build quality. Engineering might be better in design, but construction isn’t!

Ha, when we moved out, our house was about 125. I think it may have had a few little upgrades since it was built, though - bathrooms were a nice touch. Quality was good enough to pull it through some hard years, but it wasn't exactly premium. I think you can build to a wide range of quality standards, and the same was true then. The difference with modern construction like the townhomes now being built in that area, could be more importantly the maintainability. Not only fixing a broken exterior panel etc., but adaptation to current resident preferences. The houses that have been there for a century have gone through all kinds of changes, sometimes things that saved their lives like a new roof, sometimes just enclosing a porch or something. The townhome boxes are what they are, and the materials you'd need to fix them aren't always on the shelves at the big box hardware store. They aren't built to last, and no one will be trying to make them last, they'll just go down hill until it's time for the bulldozer. There might be an analogy to tubas here, too.

[peterbas]

You obviously don’t catch the joke. Guess the old days of these forums are dying. This was before my time but has been brought up over the years.

Since you are a hobbyist, I would say spending time making music would be beneficial than the over-analysis. But to each their own.

And I’ve been watching YouTube videos on ancient cultures and how modern science doesn’t explain some of their innovations and advancements and how we are looking at ancient civilizations to learn about engineering, medical, and other scientific advancements.

I just cooked part of my breakfast in a microwave that has had daily use since 1988, while for offices/classrooms, we have bought multiple newer microwaves. I don’t care about the latest advances, I would rather use this outdated microwave that works and lasts than the newest equipment that dies after 5 uses.

Ahhh, a Bloke-kind-of joke.
I did find the call on expertise rather disturbing, makes me thinking of all the stories I've read about dictatorial conductors.

Don't see the overanalysis, we are only discussing the elementary workings of brass instruments presented by the little latest research.
And the only exception being @Donn, nobody even bothered to read or take a good look at the info presented.
Tech is also a hobby, not solely a profession.

And what about over-analysis in the music, Bach wrote a lot of music but 300 years of analysing his work probably fills a small library.

I see you are using very recently developed types of tuba, so you don't seem to mind advancement here. And rightfully so since it is your profession.

They can make today's microwaves as good and better than your 1988 model, but that would suit today's throw-away economics. It has nothing to do with technical incompetence.

So houses are made for the throw away economy? My house is 125 years old and is doing better than lots of newer builds on build quality. Engineering might be better in design, but construction isn’t! I guess you could say the same about tubas. A certain 6/4 CC made in China apparently has the top engineering behind it, surprising to me all the ones I’ve played are like garbage. Maybe I just need to play a good one. My horns were designed 20+ years ago.

As a professional in music, I seriously don’t care about the physics. A good sound is a good sound. Look at the Phil Farkas book on embouchures. The best players had the worst embouchures.

I guess this only matters when you have robots playing trumpet (check out the YouTube videos).

I was talking about kitchen appliances, why compare that with a house?
Compare a 50 year old and a new one and then you'll see how much construction has evolved.
Do mind you not caring about physics, but then why do you make comments about it which make little to no sense.
Guess you fit in the Bloke category.

[Mary Ann]

Look at the Phil Farkas book on embouchures. The best players had the worst embouchures.

When the religious fanatics get going on the horn groups about the only correct embouchure on the horn is the 2/3 -1/3 Farkas embouchure, I LOVE to post the picture from the Farkas picture book of successful pro horn embouchures, of the guy who is about 98% lower lip with just a little button protruding from his upper lip in the cup. That doesn't shut them up though; they simply ignore data that doesn't fit with what they are preaching.

[bloke]

This has been a pretty damn good troll.

[Eutubabone54]

Your lung capacity and speed and volume of air, the size and shape of your oral cavity, factors in, mainly. Also , another silly unrelated question, which created much discussion amongst my 5th graders- do you open your mouth before or after you eat the cake