Holton Del Negro BB-flat tubas

[bloke]

...so who owns one - in B-flat - in working order?




@Daniel C Oberloh bought this one a while back, and I have no idea whether he's done anything with it, buy now.




rhetorical question:
Who knows how differently they play from the 7XX series "tall" 4/4 York B-flat tubas?
(answer: no one)

[York-aholic]

Could this be the same basic bugle as this one? If I remember, the Del Negro model had a pretty large bore, but the big bows look about the same.

[bloke]

Could this be the same basic bugle as this one? If I remember, the Del Negro model had a pretty large bore, but the big bows look about the same.

' pretty sure they are .750" bore - just as with the York 7XX model "tall 4/4 tubas.
It seemed to offer a nice full sound...but probably not dissimilar to the sound that my short Holton (with a King .687" bore valveset) offers.
I a Del Negro built in C, a long time ago.

Maybe the appeal to me is/are
- the rarity
- the friggin' wonkiness of the plumbing

[hrender]

Looked, came across this: https://imgur.com/gallery/holton-del-negro-bbb-DRCrj



I've no idea if the person with the pic owns the tuba, but you could post a question in the comments.

[bloke]

You know...
The more I look at those, the more I begin to believe that all of that plumbing wonkiness was simply to accommodate a valve block angle that he was requesting...

[humBell]

Not to be confused with the JW Richardson model on Lee Stofer's site:

Then

and now (well, a more recent then at least)


Does that help?

I think there was a thread on the old forum that mentioned Eli? (And something about the Oberloh one being found in a dump?)

[catgrowlB]

Do you think perhaps B&S piston tubas got some inspiration for their slide layout from the old Holton Del Negro model?
Or just coincidence? Either way, I see similarities

[bloke]

It looks to me as though the Del Negro thing is their regular valve block, except tilted towards the players hand at the bottom - requiring some bizarre custom plumbing.

The other rare version - one of which is being offered for sale by Mr Stofer - looks like a rotary design with pistons pasted into it.

[York-aholic]

Who knows how differently they play from the 7XX series "tall" 4/4 York B-flat tubas?
(answer: no one)

I've never seen a Del Negro tuba in person so have no idea how their playing characteristics compare, but...

I think (hope?) @Yorkboy will agree that this one's bugle (no idea if its BBb or CC) looks very, very similar to a York 700 (not 712) bugle wrapped backwards (700 being top action):



Furthermore, even the mouthpiece receiver looks to be the spitting image of a York 700 receiver:



Here's the imgur page that these came from (other pictures of the horn as well): https://imgur.com/gallery/holton-del-negro-photos-fx7bI

[bloke]

Yeah, you you are convincing me of that which I already suspected. I don't need any more tubas, but I believe I'd like to spend time with a really nicely straightened out 7XX series York body with a 4 + 1 .750" bore valve set (which was the original bore size of those instruments) mounted nicely on the front of it.

I'm sort of thinking that it would be just about the B flat version of a 2155, and - being B-flat - would be superior...

... and the best of the 2155 (C) tubas (and with their oversized mouthpipe tubes replaced with reasonable ones... and I believe - for a short time - either Dillon or Baltimore Brass marketed just such an instrument) are really fine instruments.

[humBell]

Are there non-BBb Del Negro tubas?

I kinda assume there is redundancy in the subject line...

Should i post WTB: Eb Del Negro Holton in the appropriate forum*?

Or would that just be a waste of internet space?





*that would likely be the bad ideas one.

[bloke]

Are there non-BBb Del Negro tubas?

I kinda assume there is redundancy in the subject line...

Should i post WTB: Eb Del Negro Holton in the appropriate forum*?

Or would that just be a waste of internet space?





*that would likely be the bad ideas one.

I believe of the very few total made, a very few were built in C.

[Yorkboy]

The valves on those Del Negro horns looks like a sousaphone block forced into a vertical plane. I’ve had my secret suspicion for many years now that in those days York made those piston sets for Holton (among many other parts such as bells and larger branches, which I have already seen definitive proof).

Holton was certainly thinking out of the norm when they designed that horn. I wonder who owns that bugle in the travel case pictured above?

The tuba player in that picture above is Fred Pfaff, I believe.

[York-aholic]

The valves on those Del Negro horns looks like a sousaphone block forced into a vertical plane. I’ve had my secret suspicion for many years now that in those days York made those piston sets for Holton (among many other parts such as bells and larger branches, which I have already seen definitive proof).

Holton was certainly thinking out of the norm when they designed that horn. I wonder who owns that bugle in the travel case pictured above?

The tuba player in that picture above is Fred Pfaff, I believe.

Agreed. If I were Holton and thought about building maybe 10 of those horns to see if they'd sell, or just a few just to please an important player, I'm not going to spend a ton of time with R&D or making a new bell mandrel. I'm going to go talk to someone who already makes something similar to what "we" want and quietly ask if I can buy the raw parts for the few horns I'm going to build. "Oh, can you spec the bell to 17" diameter please?"

@Yorkboy, would you say that if you wrapped a top action York 700's bows backward to be front action, it would look pretty much the same as the one in the unitec case? I seem to think that even the joints between bows are in the right spots. I think you've done just that haven't you? I have a 4v top action 700 that I wouldn't mind making front action but don't have the time, especially given that it is a functional 4v as is.

I would think that whomever posted those pictures on imgur (link in my last post) either owns the horn or knows who does. From that link it looks like the horn is in the process of a rebuild. You could always leave a comment on their pictures to perhaps contact them.

[bloke]

As crude as those things seem to be made (re: valveset), something tells me that (other than the Holton engraving) I could take a 4-valve front-action 7XX York and make a "reasonable facsimile" of a Del Negro...but it would be a damn shame, imo.

[Yorkboy]

@Yorkboy, would you say that if you wrapped a top action York 700's bows backward to be front action, it would look pretty much the same as the one in the unitec case?

Yes, I would. In fact, since I’ve never seen, either in person or in a catalogue, a 4/4 side action Holton, I’d say it’s a pretty good bet that the parts were sourced by York. Since Holton and York had a particularly close relationship at that time, I don’t think it would have been a difficult request. Also, spinning a bell with a smaller flare would be a relatively easy task at the factory.

FWIW, that valve orientation looks quite uncomfortable to me.

[York-aholic]

Yes, the smaller bell would have been a trivial change order.

[bloke]

Yes, the smaller bell would have been a trivial change order.

If a bell is trimmed to 17 inches on a 19 inch mandrel, it leaves a mark on the mandrel that will transfer to the 19-in bells which are subsequently made. Bell mandrels are not cheap.

There could (??) be a separate tool that's only a partial mandrel which could be mounted specifically for trimming bells and rolling rims. (Yeah, I know a little bit, but not a whole lot.)

[York-aholic]

True. I’d think (dangerous I know) that I’d spin the bell out to normal, then mark at about 17 (a bit oversized to allow for rolling the extra over the bell wire) with pencil, or a 1930s Sharpie, then score the bell. Take it off the mandrel and hand cut it. Remount, and then roll the lip back to take the bell wire.

That’s what I would do, having infinite wisdom and zero experience.



Not trivial but easier than making a 22” bell on a 19” mandrel. Or I so I’d guess (please see my previous sentence).

[bloke]

I don't know exactly how undersized bell pancakes were handled. Of course shears distort the perfect shape of a bell but there are other ways to cut other than with shears