New to doubling on Baritone

[Grumpikins]

I have just rejoined my local college/community band after a year absence to find that there are already 3 tubas in the group.... no Baritones. Honestly, 1 tuba is sufficient for this group.. since I recently acquired one, I'm going to play Baritone to fill that position instead. Although I'm considering using my eb tuba.... most of the parts are fine, but one of them is really challenging. The Enigma variations, Elgar. Holy crap! Way beyond my ability, range. I'll give it a go anyway...

[Jperry1466]

I double on euphonium in both our community band and our low brass ensemble, right now, because I have to do so. My orthopedic surgeon, who is also in both groups, won't let me lift even my little 184 CC until he thinks my replacement shoulder has progressed enough, and I'm only a month out. I have to admit that playing euphonium gives me lots of flexibility to cover or double parts in the ensemble. The community band honestly has enough of both tubas and euphoniums, but the euph section is pretty weak; my upper range limitations don't help that. Our current director seems to think we need to be playing grade 3 music that my better jr. high bands could play. "Sleigh Ride" is the lone exception. Before the scamdemic, and with a different conductor we were playing good stuff, lots of Holst, Grainger, Vaughn Williams, etc. I'd give my eye teeth to play in a band that can play "Enigma".

[bloke]

Baritone parts require faster finger-wiggling, but it's easier to wiggle the fingers fast with a baritone than with a tuba.

[Yadent]

I play Eb tuba in a British Brass Band and am one of 2 tubas in a community concert band. i play euphonium in a Pops Orchestra, covering....4th horn or BASSOON parts, whichever is most needed. I frequently have to rearrange the bassoon score in order for me to have a fighting chance. And no, the conductors prefer the euph sound over that of the tuba on those particular parts.

[gocsick]

I picked Euphonium up last year for a low brass choir. I played it in high school but not since then. It was humbling to learn that my upper range on euphonium was exactly the same as on tuba. I had to spend a lot of time on long tones and lip slurs to get up to 4th ledger line Bb.

[Jperry1466]

Baritone parts require faster finger-wiggling, but it's easier to wiggle the fingers fast with a baritone than with a tuba.

Especially when said fingers are full of arthritis.

[donn]

i can wiggle my fingers pretty fast, if it doesn't matter which finger and when. Lately I've been pulling out the bombardino once in a while, and for me on that instrument (which some would call a euphonium, others a bass saxhorn), the range seems to go up by the appropriate octave as one would naively expect, but the tone doesn't come easy.

[Grumpikins]

Before the scamdemic, and with a different conductor we were playing good stuff, lots of Holst, Grainger, Vaughn Williams, etc. I'd give my eye teeth to play in a band that can play "Enigma".

I honestly think Enigma is beyond our scope. But I really enjoy this director's selections. He picks a good mix and nearly all of it so far has been new to me playing which is nice.

[acemorgan]

It was humbling to learn that my upper range on euphonium was exactly the same as on tuba.

I know that feeling.

I also recently switched from tuba to euphonium in my community band. We had a former band member suddenly show up with his tuba, wanting to rejoin. That gave us five. When our erstwhile "snowbird" tubist rejoins us in January, there would be six. That would make tuba more than 10% of the total band. Meanwhile, one of our three euphonium players had to take a sabbatical. So I figured I needed to offer to change.

My first rehearsal, I really felt like a tuba player who owned a euphonium, rather than an actual euphonium player. We had stuff that was simply out of my range. I asked the section leader whether he would like me to drop an octave, or just drop out at those points. He is one of the most easy-going men I have ever known. He said, "Do whatever you like. We're here to have fun." And I am having fun. I feel like I'm in the right section.

[Mary Ann]

I'm guessing your section leader is TB, and yup.

[acemorgan]

Yup.

[iiipopes]

I did that a few years ago for a couple of seasons. All I can say is that once you find a horn, get a Wick Ultra 6 in the shank size that fits the horn (BBB "baritone" for American instruments, "euph" if it is an upright bell euph that is modeled after a Besson or equivalent). The Wick Ultra 6 is like a Bach 6 1/2 AL with a deeper cup so the low range is not so grainy. This will help you blend with both brass and woodwinds, as well as put enough air through the horn for secure intonation and tone. The larger cup euph mouthpieces are mainly designed for euph playing in a brass band context.

[gocsick]

I did that a few years ago for a couple of seasons. All I can say is that once you find a horn, get a Wick Ultra 6 in the shank size that fits the horn (BBB "baritone" for American instruments, "euph" if it is an upright bell euph that is modeled after a Besson or equivalent). The Wick Ultra 6 is like a Bach 6 1/2 AL with a deeper cup so the low range is not so grainy. This will help you blend with both brass and woodwinds, as well as put enough air through the horn for secure intonation and tone. The larger cup euph mouthpieces are mainly designed for euph playing in a brass band context.

Or try a Schilke 51D. It is essentially the same cup diameter as well (25.5mm). The Wick 4AL is incredibly popular but it wasn't comfortable for me. I use a 6 1/2 al on my small bore trombone, so the 51D felt familiar.

[arpthark]

Last night I played euph in our band for the first time since 2022-23 (and my first serious euph playing since then). They are short a player for the winter concert series and we just had a new tuba player join, so I figured why not.

I gotta say, anything above 3-ledger-line G was kicking my butt. We are playing some traditional German Christmas tunes with high-tessitura euph (tenor horn) parts and, since I have mostly been playing CC tuba (and not practicing, and certainly not practicing the high range on any instrument!), that kicked my butt.

In our last concert run that I played euph, the baritone part in W. C. Handy's "St. Louis Blues March", which is in G major, goes up to a high B natural above the staff which I used to be able to play comfortably (along with the C above that), so I've lost approx. a major 3rd in the past couple years. That high C showed up in another piece we did on that program, Charles Ives' "Variations on 'Jerusalem the Golden'" which is scored for an offstage brass band of antique instruments. I ended up playing double bell euph on that, along with a helicon and a couple antique cornets.

And yes, I have always played euph on a Schilke 51D that @gocsick mentioned. I have bigger stuff, but it always tends to sound too dark/murky/covered to me. In concert band I'd rather sound like an American-style baritone than a big old (channeling @bloke here) French C tuba in Bb.

[Grumpikins]

Thank you all for the support. I am currently working on getting my hands on a couple mouthpieces to use. The one that came with this horn is really small. The rim I'd measures .900 or 22.86mm

[Grumpikins]

Also, I wonder about this occasionally, what is the difference between a baritone and a euphonium? I understand that a true baritone is not conical so I'm specifically referring to American? Baritones. The biggest differences I see is the bore size and usually the front valve set up.

Go.....Popcorn....

[Grumpikins]

Also, I wonder about this occasionally, what is the difference between a baritone and a euphonium? I understand that a true baritone is not conical so I'm specifically referring to American? Baritones. The biggest differences I see is the bore size and usually the front valve set up.

Go.....Popcorn....

[gocsick]

Also, I wonder about this occasionally, what is the difference between a baritone and a euphonium?

Dave Werden had a nice essay looking at the differences between American Euphoniums, British euphoniums, and British Baritones.

https://dwerden.com/Baritone-or-Euphonium.pdf

[donn]

This soup might make more sense if you look at it from the perspective of the more standardized early member of this general family of instruments, the saxhorn.

Modern saxhorns still manufactured and in use:

• B♭ soprano saxhorn: flugelhorn
• E♭ alto/tenor saxhorn: alto/tenor horn
• B♭ baritone saxhorn: baritone horn
• The B♭ bass, E♭ bass, and B♭ contrabass saxhorns are basically the same as the modern euphonium, E♭ bass tuba, and BB♭ contrabass tuba, respectively.

Here they mean "British" baritone horn; baritone saxhorn is Berlioz' nomenclature, Foote and Forsyth call it tenor saxhorn.

Is the modern euphonium a bass saxhorn? No, but it's "basically the same" - it's a fairly large conical instrument in the same length. The bass saxhorn is enough different to sound different, as you can hear on various recorded examples online. Physically, to my eye, the saxhorn profile is narrower in the bell (before the bell flare.)

The baritone is a narrower implementation of the saxhorn family. Is it conical? Yes. Cylindrical is trombonium etc., very different. It's a conical instrument, that's just more cylindrical because the change in bore dimension on the smaller end of the instrument would be impractically minute. There are some pretty nice baritone solos you can find online to get the important fact of the matter.

(Re Werden's tuning slide comment - my 5V Eb tuba's after-the-valves tuning slide reverses, and why not? A slide has to be a lot of straight tubing, and the point of tucking a miniscule bore increase into the crook is debatable.)

I consider the American baritone to be "basically the same" as a euphonium. In this type of instrument - conical brass horn in the 9 foot range - there are a lot of ways they can go and still work, and if you manage to separate them into two categories, someone will make another that doesn't fit. (What about all those oval baritones from Germany and eastern Europe?) I suspect the American baritone and the euphonium are examples of parallel evolution followed by massive cross species pollination.

[bloke]

Usually - when someone quotes Wikipedia, I threaten to go there and edit it - so that whatever they're trying to prove will prove the opposite or at least something to the contrary. LOL

bloke " Wikipedia is the truth of the people, until another people edits the truth."