My Meinl Weston "6465"

[Sousaswag]

I thought this might as well be a new thread. Today, my beautiful beast has returned! I'll talk here about all the things that have happened with it, but not why I bought it. See my other thread on it for that. I have renamed this tuba the "6465" because it's a combination of those two models. At the end of this, it will be more 6450 than 2165.

The bones of this horn - I suspect it's a VERY early model 2165. It's got the small valve block and used to have a tone ring in the bell, long ago. It had a crazy amount of heavy weight guard moldings all over, heavy weight valve caps, and a bunch of unnecessary bracing.

It also had a strange mouthpipe - It wasn't the original huge one, but it also wasn't a 45SLP pipe. It was somewhere in between.

As I've mentioned here a few times, I REALLY like the model 6450. But I'm too cheap to pay almost 20K for a new one, and didn't want to wait around for a used one to MAYBE show up. I figured messing with a 2165 might fit the bill.

Again, it had a bunch of "college kid" damage. A big punch in the bottom bow cap, a disgusting amount of dents all up the length of the bell, and a few in the top bow.

Additionally, it was filthy, and I wanted to change some "old tuba" design choices that MW made with these and the 45 and 55 tubas.

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Here is what I started with. I didn't photograph the damage, mainly because I didn't think about it before I took it to Keith. Spotty lacquer, filth, and dents.

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Here is where we are as of today. What a beautiful instrument, and a huge transformation.

Okay, so, if you're not aware, stock 2165's are pretty hard to play. They have huge mouthpipes, they're heavy, and they don't offer much in the clarity department.

Stock 6450's change out the mouthpipe, main tuning slide, bell, and 5th valve location, among a few other things, and fix pretty much all the issues unmodified 2165's have. All of these parts are obtainable from Buffet Crampon, but the wait times are pretty crazy.

My 2165 actually exhibited really good intonation, even with the old mouthpipe and condition. The low register was still a little bit tight, but I attribute that more to me not being used to 6/4 tubas. Since 2165's have that reputation, I opted for a set of Martin Wilk's MAW valves, mostly to see if they do what he says they do.

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MAW valves - Super light weight. I can't comment on how much they actually change, because I haven't used them long enough, but the valve action is really great.

Over the course of the last 6 months, this tuba was pretty much "overhauled." I hate that word, but it was pretty much taken completely apart and put back together with as few dents as possible. The bottom bow was the worst of it, but it looks great now. I wasn't expecting it to take so long, but Keith has a lot of work, and this was a huge project.

It plays really well. I don't have issues playing it in tune, the low register IS there, and it's comfortable to hold. I still think I may want that mouthpipe to wrap around the bell some more, but I'll need to play it for longer periods of time. Currently, the pipe is "floating" off the bell, so bending it another small amount shouldn't be too much of a job.

Additionally, I have ordered, from Buffet, a 6450 main slide assembly, a 6450 dogleg, and a 6450 5th linkage, including the thumb lever. I plan to move the 5th valve to where it is on the 6450 when everything shows up. We'll deal with the 5th slide when these parts show up, someday. It should be pretty much "plug and play" as they say. Not cheap. It is what it is.

In it's current state with the adjustable ring on it, the 5th lever is JUST reachable with my (albeit, long) thumb. It's just not a great design. It'll be fine until the new thumb lever shows up.

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Glamour shot with the Holton. It's dark out early, these days. Lighting isn't the best.

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A better view of that 5th thumb lever. It will be what it is, for now.

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Not perfect, but perfectly fine with me. It looks great, and was a huge repair.

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Front view

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Rear view

I have in progress photos, but I just wanted to get this all typed up so it's here. Enjoy. I certainly am a happy camper tonight. I'll update accordingly as I play it more and receive or take more photos.

[bloke]

The tone ring is really heavy, but it does make the 2165 bell sound more like the 6450 bell...more lively, as it takes away from the interior size.

Carl K. was nice enough to sell me a tone ring for my 2165 - back when I had one for a bit. I liked the sound of it and used two-sided tape to install it in the bell, rather than soldering it in.

[Grumpikins]

Wow! Stripping the horn and the new finger buttons really makes it a head turn-er. Awesome job.

[MiBrassFS]

Those tone rings are, indeed, stout. I have one here I bought from a guy in Boston and never used. I was going to try to back it with cork and make it removable like a mute, but never got around to it before I sold the tuba. Makes a great paperweight!

[matt g]

I understand about the placement of the fifth valve lever, lots of people don’t like it. I’m lucky enough to have a hand that fits that set well.

I don’t know if I would swap out that fifth valve, especially if you think it’s dialed in as-is.

[Sousaswag]

I don’t think moving the 5th valve will change much, but we’ll find out. The main reason for that change is to take advantage of the smaller main slide taper for slightly more control.

I also don’t find the lack of the tone ring to be an issue. I like the way this tuba sounds. Really similar to my Holton 6/4, but with better intonation.

I also think when I get that new thumb lever, the ring needs to move about a half inch to an inch higher up the first slide tube. But right now, moving it any higher would mean I couldn’t reach that thumb lever.

In the tuba’s current state, what Keith and I both noted was that there’s pretty much zero learning curve. With many a 6/4 that I’ve played over the years, I’ve felt that they took a while to really figure out as far as low register response and intonation. This one is really pretty easy to play and steer.

As with anything, it will take me a while to become familiar with the tuba. Being a big project as well, don’t be surprised if I change more things. The ultimate goal is to have a tuba that fits ME and what I like. So far, so good.

[bloke]

Those tone rings are, indeed, stout. I have one here I bought from a guy in Boston and never used. I was going to try to back it with cork and make it removable like a mute, but never got around to it before I sold the tuba. Makes a great paperweight!

Wade is familiar with a new-condition big-valve 2165 that I bought for a low price (with the purpose of experimentation). My experiments and goal were to see that if I could rig up a 2165 that could be played without pulling any slides and with a clearer sound. It has a sixth valve (over in the model 6450 rotor location) which adds nothing more than a absolute minimum fixed loop of tubing which is even shorter than a #2 slide bow. Most of the tuning problems with that 2165/2265/6450 bugle are sharp tendencies, and I would kick in that valve for sharp pitches and it (approximately) fixed all of them. ...and of course had a open G flat tendency, but the more the instrument warmed up in the large bows, the more that tendency would disappear. I got rid of the OEM mouthpipe and put a 45SLP taper mouthpipe on it, I also a put 6450 main tuning slide and dogleg on it. The final thing that I did to make it smaller (beyond some other subtle things) was to stick one of those tone rings inside the bell. The thing weighed a full 30 lbs,, and very few tubas (that people claim weigh that much) actually do, but that one did. I actually liked the type of sound it made (clear, and better than the typical 6450 resonance, in my opinion), but it actually hurt to hold and play it, after a while. FatBastard offers a much more pleasurable experience and - with only five valves and a bit of slide manipulation - offers much better intonation. Someone (who's known for having a very large collection of instruments) now owns that thing, I think.

[tubatodd]

I thought this might as well be a new thread. Today, my beautiful beast has returned! I'll talk here about all the things that have happened with it, but not why I bought it. See my other thread on it for that. I have renamed this tuba the "6465" because it's a combination of those two models. At the end of this, it will be more 6450 than 2165 ......

As a 2 time 2165 owner (no longer), THIS is the 2165 I wish I had. That looks to have all of the tweaks I would have loved to have had.

[bloke]

As a 2 time 2165 owner (no longer), THIS is the 2165 I wish I had. That looks to have all of the tweaks I would have loved to have had.

Were it that the one I bought (to monkey around with) didn't have such pretty lacquer on the bottom bow (as well as having been completely clear of any denting), I probably would have removed those silly/heavy strips of brass from it. The "tone ring" was quite heavy, but it did actually accomplish something (good, to my ears) sonically...ie. bell interior shape.

[Sousaswag]

I thought this might as well be a new thread. Today, my beautiful beast has returned! I'll talk here about all the things that have happened with it, but not why I bought it. See my other thread on it for that. I have renamed this tuba the "6465" because it's a combination of those two models. At the end of this, it will be more 6450 than 2165 ......

As a 2 time 2165 owner (no longer), THIS is the 2165 I wish I had. That looks to have all of the tweaks I would have loved to have had.

I think this is what a LOT of former (or current) 2165 owners would say. All I’ve done, really, is what Alan Baer did with his model. As I play this tuba, I’m really liking what it offers. It gives that slightly more present sound that the Baer doesn’t. Maybe 10% more fat, if you will.

I hope that by posting here, about what I’ve done and continue to do with this particular instrument, more 2165’s will be changed for the better!

[bloke]

re: just previous post

agreed.

The oem model 2165 doesn't "carry" unless someone absolutely blows the crap out of it.

My (B-flat) Miraphone model 98 requires a lot of "air" (.835" bore valveset), but (normal-sized capillary portion of the mouthpipe, and overall efficiency) it doesn't require that I "blow the crap out of it" in order for it to be able to be interpreted (as it's own sound) by the patrons.

[Sousaswag]

Some "in progress" repair photos, weird Meinl Weston things, and other miscellaneous thoughts...

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Whew! This was a fun image to get. I believe it was getting the lacquer stripped off, here.

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The true definition of a "travel tuba"...

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Look at how evenly cut and shaped this bottom bow is! We all wish Holton's 345 bows were this nice!

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Same story with the bell.

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Bow guard repaired and fit, really really well.

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Weird heavy-weight caps that I asked to have cut down.

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Those caps on the horn.

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The top caps - Why, why, why, did they decide to put these rings here? Ugly, heavy, loud, unnecessary. They're out now.

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Top cap off my Bohm & Meinl - Same exact design, but without that ring.

All this heavy weight stuff on these horns is really a head scratcher. But I guess that was Mr. Deck's thought back in the 90's. Heavier instrument = better sound? Nah. Not the case.

One random thing - There is no good place to pick this thing up. Normally, I can fit my entire hand under the bottom bow, but due to where the main slide and 5th valve sit, and the wrap of the body, nope, not happening. I imagine this will be annoying in tight rehearsal spaces. Particularly where my band rehearses.

Now that it's pretty much dent free, boy, am I nervous about it being around other people. Even transporting it places. I do NOT want to F that bottom bow up, again. Weird, right? I mean, I've had "nicer" or newer instruments before, (MRP, HB2P, Thor, Tuono, blah blah) but with this one being a bit my brain child, and having ALL this work now done, I am totally nervous about taking it out of my house. Ah, well. It'll never leave my arms.

[bloke]

It's good to have something about which one can look forward and be enthusiastic/excited.
I probably dumped my (superb) C instrument (with featherweight pistons) and jumped into the kaiser B-flat cauldron for no reason better than what I stated in the previous sentence.

[Grumpikins]

"6465" alone does not seem like a suitable name for that beauty. How about "6465 Freya" keeping with the meinl weston Norse theme.

[Sousaswag]

I’d call it “Odin” in that case. This instrument is so much bigger than pretty much everything else in the line that it’s fitting

Been playing it a bunch lately. It’s got this depth of “big tuba” sound that I really really like. It’s not particularly hard to steer, either.

Once I got the slides set where the tuba likes them, things are in tune and the low register responds well.

I took a photo of it next to one of my student’s Jupiter peashooters and couldn’t help but laugh.

[matt g]

Odin was the nickname I had for my 2165.

I remember playing early examples of the 2165 and the low register felt “tight” and/or a bit “dead”.

When I bought the one I had, I was surprised as to how nice it was in the lower register compared to my recollection. I’m pretty sure it had something to do with the MAW valves.

The pitch slots are pretty wide on the 2165. Those might tighten up some with the smaller leadpipe. Regardless, I only fiddled with the first valve slide, which was mainly shoving it in for D in the staff, and the fourth valve slide (which is nicely accessible) for low D.

[Sousaswag]

Hey, guess what?!

M-W got back to me with part numbers. Prices really aren't too bad. Much lower than I expected. It took about a week from the time I reached out until today with these part numbers. I've placed orders for:

SP506090 - "Bow" in their system, but their parts guy called it "Dogleg/S-Bow" as I did.

SPZ0064502-412988 - "Slide" (6450 Main Tuning Slide)

SP523908 - "Linkage System" (6450 5th linkage)

What I still need numbers for (they're on it)

Main tuning slide outer tubes

5th tuning slide - the whole thing, from the rotor out, with outer tubes

We're one step closer to this tuba being "done." Yes, I plan to move the rotor. I don't think it'll do much, other than make my hand more comfortable. Remember, I didn't want to pay over $17,000 for a used Baer. This horn is my attempt to get as close as I can.

In other news, I had some other people play this instrument yesterday. They're all much better players than I am, and it impressed. It was great to hear what this horn can do in the hands of some guys who are getting paid to play the tuba. Sitting next to a MRP and a Rudy, the size is impressive. It certainly plays "bigger" than the MRP, but the MRP was easier to steer (duh). Putting all these smaller parts on will bring it, again, as close as it can get.

[Grumpikins]

I'm just curious. It's hard to tell from the pictures. How does the mouth pipe line up at the reciever in relation to the bell? It looks like it may be slightly turned up. I had to have the reciever on my 2145 turned upwards slightly. I was having severe neck pain and I found it was from cocking my head to get my face onto the mouthpiece correctly. With all the work you put into that horn, the ergonomics should be perfect for you as well.

Anyways, I'm drooling at your pictures. It looks fantastic.

[Sousaswag]

Yes, it’s slightly upward pointing.

I may have it bent a little further down, and a little more around the bell. This is a copy of the pipe that was on the horn. It’s not perfect, but it’s really close.

[bloke]

If you're into looks - and we all are, you might want to have those gutters taken off the top caps on a lathe, as well.