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681, hmm. seems like an interesting model number.

To me your plan sounds good. You know what your going to do, know what features you want. Just make sure you give the horn a good try before you buy. If you spend a grand on a horn that has a few issues, and a grand on repairs by a reputable repair person, you can have a great horn that will treat you well for a long time. Happy hunting. Best wishes.

First, I wish to respond to a comment by Mr. Denney, concerning the Josef Lidl Company, which I have had various dealings over the past 20+ years. I asked the current Josef Lidl CEO how, if they were not using old Cerveny tooling, were they making tubas so similar in design that they even share some model numbers? His reply was that, duing the Communist Era of the CSSR, the State had nationalized Cerveny, Amati, and Lidl (ie., stolen the companies from their rightful owners), and that under the State ownership period, all three factories were equipped with identical sets of tooling.
Cerveny still has their old tooling, but for some years now, the Josef Lidl Company has been investing in new tooling, and are making the models for which they have modern tooling. So no, Josef Lidl is not making Cerveny tubas, and Cerveny is certainly not making tubas like the Josef Lidl instruments.

As for a comment above about the 681 being an interesting model number, it does look like 186, backwards. Since the Lidl & Cerveny 681's are virtually identical in size to a Miraphone 186, with the Czech tubas having a slightly larger valve bore, maybe there is a reason for that model number.

There are plenty of fine BBb tubas out there in the $5,000.00-and-up range. If you are patient and keep looking, you will find a good deal that fits your budget.

Having both played a lot of tubas over the past 50 years, and worked on a ton of them over the past 28 years, I have a couple of observations;

Asian tubas can be very decent players - for a while. I am seeing that over time, their alloys do not hold up like the European or American alloys.a
So, I would avoid an Asian tuba over 10 years old, and certain ones altogether. It is an awful thing when customers bring me tubas (and other brass
instruments) that have started disintegrating before the player's eyes. Some companies stand behind their instruments better than others. It is a
real eye-opener for me when I have two instruments on my bench, one that is recently made and is having to be patched, while an antique American-made instrument is on the other side, and the metal is allowing me to work it without a problem.

For someone whose main instrument is not tuba, and is not pursuing a professional playing career, I would suggest looking for the following;

- King 1241/2341, any vintage, if it plays well for you, you have a brass friend for life.
- Miraphone 186-S BBb. This was the plain-Jane (but very well-made) version of the 186. The plain bell rim is much less susceptible to expensive damage than the fancy nickel-silver rim. I have owned one in CC, and it was a great gig horn - for any type of playing.
- Cerveny 681 or 686 BBb. The 681 is the less-expensive 186, and when in proper repair, plays great. The 686 is similar, just a little larger, with a deeper, slightly richer sound. The Lidl versions of the 681 and 686 are the gold standard of these horns, and if you can find one used, even better.
-VMI 3301BBb. I have serviced several of these, which were re-branded B&S instruments. These are very fine players. With any of these tubas, if they are cared-for, you should almost never have a valve issue. Piston valves allow much easier owner maintenance, which means that you do not have to see one of us repair techs as often ;^)

This is a list of some of the most common all-around BBb tubas that are quite good players, and generally very dependable. With reasonable care & maintenance, owning one of these should make it unnecessary to ever buy another tuba. There are other possibilities, and one of them may ultimately fit you better. If you get a good tuba and hold on to it, you will have less hassle and will save a lot of money in the long run.

The story I've always heard is that the Czech craftsmen fled communism at the end of WW2 and formed miraphone. That's why the old Cerveny 68 is practically identical in form to a miraphone 86 (called a 186 only here in the USA)

Some of the older cerveny tubas can be Amazing. I loaned my 601 BBb to a talented student over the weekend and brought it back gushing about it, and he normally plays a 186

I for one like quality BBb tubas.

You are right Mark. And the 68 and 68x nomenclature of Amati and Cerveny originates directly from the Bohland and Fuchs model designation of 68 for their 1/2, 3/4, 4/4 and „ganz weit“ (extra large) series of B tubas (also available in C), with the later, extra large having 132 and 82 mm diameter at the bottom bow and a bell diameter of 40 cm. The 4/4 model was 120 mm and 75 mm at the bottom bow (outlet, inlet) and 38 cm bell diameter. (1920-30 B&F catalogue). Quite a difference from todays dimensions.

best
chris

LeMark wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2026 9:29 pm The story I've always heard is that the Czech craftsmen fled communism at the end of WW2 and formed miraphone. That's why the old Cerveny 68 is practically identical in form to a miraphone 86 (called a 186 only here in the USA)

Some of the older cerveny tubas can be Amazing. I loaned my 601 BBb to a talented student over the weekend and brought it back gushing about it, and he normally plays a 186

It’s not so much that they fled Communist rule, but were expelled. The thing that gets glossed over a bit is that area of Czechoslovakia (the Sudetenland) was mostly settled by ethnic Germans before WWII. Basically, Germany took that land over during the war, and after the war the Czechoslovak government expelled those ethnic Germans to Germany, which is how the remnants of the German-speaking instrument makers in that area ended up in areas nearby over the German border.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion ... hoslovakia

bloke wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2026 10:41 pm I for one like quality BBb tubas.

Me too, and I especially like quality CC tubas, of which there a far fewer vs. BBb.

There's nothing the matter with the turn of the 21st century 186 BBb I'm just taking a break from playing. (I do prefer my CC, she's just that good.)

prodigal wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:39 pm There's nothing the matter with the turn of the 21st century 186 BBb I'm just taking a break from playing. (I do prefer my CC, she's just that good.)

I'd choose a particularly good 1960's C 186 C over any 186 BB-flat. The B-flat version (good tuba/popular tuba/easy-to-sell tuba) isn't quite what I'm looking for...but - then again - neither is the best-ever 186 C.

bloke wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 5:01 pm

prodigal wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:39 pm There's nothing the matter with the turn of the 21st century 186 BBb I'm just taking a break from playing. (I do prefer my CC, she's just that good.)

I'd choose a particularly good 1960's C 186 C over any 186 BB-flat. The B-flat version (good tuba/popular tuba/easy-to-sell tuba) isn't quite what I'm looking for...but - then again - neither is the best-ever 186 C.

And that's why we have lots of different tubas, a great thing.

I don't want to try an oversized tuba, I might like it.

Well, let me rebut myself, I really like my oversized F tuba, though.

prodigal wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 6:18 pm Well, let me rebut myself, I really like my oversized F tuba, though.

Yeah. I believe that a pt-15 is a bit oversized, but those still work pretty good.

bloke wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 7:38 pm

prodigal wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 6:18 pm Well, let me rebut myself, I really like my oversized F tuba, though.

Yeah. I believe that a pt-15 is a bit oversized, but those still work pretty good.

A little oversized, but so am I right now. The PT-15 definitely looks better than its player!

(I might get to try out a JBL and 56AFT today...) Definitely not buying, though!

All of those play well, but they are more work to play than mine, and don't play better than mine.
Mine actually plays better than I do, and what I mean by that is when I'm playing it. Who could ask for anything more than that?

1.) Visit Mighty Quinn and demo the instruments they have there. They have a great selection that can narrow down what you like or don't like about an instrument. Don't buy a tuba without playing it first.

2.) Contact the tuba professor or band director at your college and find out what they have! You may not need to buy an instrument at all. Also contact Ryan Schultz at UPS, Andy Abel at PLU, and John Dicesare at UW to see their recommendations or if they have leads on instruments up for sale nearby.

3.) The Yamaha-641 makes the top of lists for HS band directors to purchase because it is durable and it's easy for smaller students to make a sound on. I have never played one of these instruments that felt good or sounded good to play, especially compared to the miraphone 186's that are about the same price (much less when used) and also very common in bandrooms. I wouldn't recommend one for personal ownership.

As of yesterday, I will say that the B&S PT-1 is a fine BBb tuba!

Review vs. 186 BBb to come, when I can lug the thing in to school and find a secure place to store it, its in a big case.

I'm beginning to really believe that B&S tubas are the most efficient for dynamics and tone per cubic liter of air blown through them. The PT-1 doesn't seem anywhere near as much of an air hog as it should be, it feels far larger than a 186 BBb. You really have to work to make its teeth show, which can be good and bad, but it has a large deep voice for its size.

In summary: there are lots of opportunities for you out there to get a great BBb, keep your eyes open, ask and try everything that you can, make sure you don't spend too much on beer in the coming years. Watch the postings here to keep up with the going prices.

Oh, people! Miraphone 494. A walk in the park, in tune, "that" sound.

prodigal wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2026 9:01 am As of yesterday, I will say that the B&S PT-1 is a fine BBb tuba!

Review vs. 186 BBb to come, when I can lug the thing in to school and find a secure place to store it, its in a big case.

I'm beginning to really believe that B&S tubas are the most efficient for dynamics and tone per cubic liter of air blown through them. The PT-1 doesn't seem anywhere near as much of an air hog as it should be, it feels far larger than a 186 BBb. You really have to work to make its teeth show, which can be good and bad, but it has a large deep voice for its size.

In summary: there are lots of opportunities for you out there to get a great BBb, keep your eyes open, ask and try everything that you can, make sure you don't spend too much on beer in the coming years. Watch the postings here to keep up with the going prices.

B&S makes some really nice tubas. I agree that they seem pretty efficient, but I think efficiency largely matters based on what your goal is.

If you want to push it harder without breaking up, the B&S is going to do that pretty well. However, something with a larger bore like an Alex 163 or a Rudy 5/4 is going to take and take and take before it ever breaks up. I've owned both, and both require very little "go", but are less efficient for me to play at lower volume levels. Maybe not more "work," but you'll end up with air that you aren't putting into the horn.

The Miraphone 186 (and 188) is super easy up until around Forte. But for extended Forte (or FF), it's a lot more work.

My analogy has always been that all cars can get up to 60 mph pretty easily. But getting from 60 to 80 is a lot different for different cars. Some will do it nice and easy. Others will eventually do it, but work really hard to get there. And from 80 to 100 (hey, slow down!), some cars simply can't do it. Others will get to 100 and handle even more.

But... The car that can't get to 100 is a whole lot different at 40 mph, too. So, it's all a matter of what you are actually trying to do.

Congrats on the tuba. Did you post a photo yet?

The PT-1 is in my basement right now. It came with a GARD Wheelie gig bag/pseudo hard case which is just gigantic. I had to take the boss's truck to pick it up, and had to loosen the tonneau cover just to get it to close over it, so it has to ride in the back of my truck. I need to clean out the bed before the nylon case shell is permanently impregnated with hay. (The 186 and the -15 get the back bench seat.) I'm hoping to haul her in to school for better lighting and set up the review/thunderdome match against the 186 BBb here next week sometime.) I'm looking for a spare huge locker to commandeer to put her in, with 2 tubas, 2 celli, and 2 classical guitars, my locker is quite the storage unit right now!

I guess this summer, I'll change the room name from the basement to the B&Sment.