Quality BBb Tubas

[A_Brass_Guy]

Hello all, I am a soon to be graduating High School Senior and I am currently looking at buying my own tuba to continue playing on after the inevitable return of my school horn. I plan to continue playing heavily for a long time and would like to get something good and reliable, but I also don't ever plan to play professionally, probably playing in community bands and the odd gig here and there. I just wanted to get some model recomendations and tips on what I have found so far. I am currently looking in the price range of 3-4k used, so I'm hoping to find something good for a more reasonable price.

I believe that I have an idea of what general instrument I am looking for, being a 4/4 BBb 4 valve rotary tuba. I am going with BBb because it is what I know, as well as I am playing more for the fun of it, so no real point in confusing myself with a CC tuba. I'm also looking for rotary valves because all of the pistons that I have dealt with so far have been really sticky, no matter what I do. Unless someone can convince me that pistons can be not bad, then I might consider a piston horn, but otherwise a 4 valve rotary (maybe 5 valve if I'm real lucky) is what I'm looking for. And I am looking for a 4/4 because it is the standard size and from my understanding the most versatile, as I kind of want to do everything with this instrument and don't plan on buying half a dozen tubas for each sound because, well, they're expensive... and eventually floorspace.

Currently I have found a few models that I think I will be looking out for, but I wanted thoughts on my list, and anything I could add.

- Miraphone 186 BBb - I know Miraphone is a good brand and I see the 186 preached relentlessly everywhere across the internet. (Although I'm not sure if that if for the model in general or just the CC model)

- Yamaha YBB-641 - I know that many people say that these are very dull sounding and that Yamahas are poor sounding in general. But I'm willing to give it a try, because maybe I'll like it, plus Yamahas are supposed to have really good QC and reliable sound.

- Eastman EBB-562 - They are a chinese company, but I've seen good things on Eastman horns and I think it could be worth a thought at the very least.

- B&S GR51 - I've seen that B&S instruments are good build and sound, so if I can find one it could be a good horn.

Any feedback would be great and very helpful to my research, as I know there are many people on here with way more tuba knowledge than me, as I am a originally just a trombone player.

[gocsick]

Just my $0.02... I was in the same boat as you many years ago... definitely keep playing if you can.. there have been times in my life where I was very active and other times, like graduate school and when my kids were very young, where the tubes basically came out only for Tubachristmas.

What are your plans next year? If you are going to college I would say wait to buy anything. Most schools will have tubas that non-music majors can use.

To me the Miraphone 186 is the gold standard for community band rotary tubas. I would include the Meinl Weston Model 25 as well.

The Yamaha 641 is fine... I never really heard or played a Yamaha instrument, front trumpet to tubat got excited me (except for the really high end stuff played by top musicians) from trumpets to tuba. They are all really consistent.. but somewhat boring.

[bloke]

[prodigal]

I was working on a long blokeish rant till I got timed out, but here's my $0.06. (Two cents adjusted for inflation)

I started on trombone in 1988 in fourth grade. In seventh grade, my teacher ASKED me to play tuba. 30 some years later, I teach orchestra, guitar, and food service in a public high school. I took about 15 years off, sold my B&S PT-10 F tuba to pay for my cello (I am a strings teacher), and my first 186CC to buy my first tractor.

I said I'd never probably play tuba again. (Don't ever say never!) A terrifying and motivating dream told me to get off my a$$ and get back to tuba. Here I am, back and loving and cherishing each note.

TRY/BEG/CHEAT/STEAL to get private lessons next year at college. Even though you're not a music major, some colleges will let you take lessons (it's worked well for many of my string students). Plead your case, tell them that you want to be a skilled amateur, but need to borrow a tuba, but you'll pay it back through hard work and practice. Audition for ensembles, practice your butt off, (it's better than drinking/partying, not that a good beer doesn't taste excellent after a good practice session/lesson/rehearsal. Just one, and a good beer, not a keg of swill.)

If you do this, you'll get to try all kinds of tubas, and learn what your "voice" is. I'm kinda a brash, angry, yellin' Gen Xer, so my 1960 186CC fits my "voice" perfectly. Patience, try stuff, save your current money and add to it.

Avoid bass tubas, they're opiates and should be avoided at all costs. I have two in the basement right now, one is okay, the other is other-worldly.

As to the few BBbs I've played before and after I joined the dark side of CC tubas:

Olds 99 3 valve. Small, but easy-peasy.

Miraphone 184 BBb, small but so easy to play, my school horn, but our band was small. Got me into college.

Miraphone 186 BBb: The Trashcan. I picked it out when our new school was built and we could basically get whatever we wanted. She has had all of the dents removed from too many young scholars who didn't appreciate my lobbying for a superior school band tuba. Yeah, I could probably get by with one of these for 99% of life, but I've got a great, old 186CC. Ymmv.

Never buy new trucks, tubas, fine firearms and fly rods.

[hrender]

I bought a 641 many years ago, and it got me through college. It was never my favorite horn, and it seemed (at least to me) to be sensitive to what mouthpiece you used, but I received compliments on the sound of it. The 186 is a favorite of many, and there's been praise for both the 562 and GR51.

For a more informed choice, you might check out the horns that Dan Oberloh has at his shop since you're in his general area. He has a PT-605 (which I think is the same as the GR51) and a 186 last time I checked his web page: http://www.oberloh.com/sales/tubas.htm

[Charlie C Chowder]

Where in western Washington? It's a large place. Going to college? Lots of good advice posted above if you are. You have had some bad experience with pistons, but they must be good or nobody would buy them. And you see very few rotary trumpets and baritones. I have two Marzan slanted valve tubas, one rotary, one piston. The biggest difference is the sound. Rotary is the Europium/orchestra sound, with the piston being the American/brass marching band sound. That does not necessarily hold true to all makes. But the valve system affect the playability of the two, just the maintenance. Only one of my many toys has rotary values. I was in you place many years ago. If you live near Portland, OR, You might try Wally's Music in Oregon City. They have a variety of used tubas and sousaphones, all with garrenties. Rosecity Music has a lot of new tubas in Vancouver WA. And Portland has one of the biggest TubaChristmas groups, my BBb York is the biggest there.

CCC

[PlayTheTuba]

Since your list consists of 4/4 Rotary BBb's, I'd include the Lidl 4/4 BBb's. I personally quite like the LBB 884-4R – Moldau de Luxe. I think it's pretty too. Although, not sure how many used examples would be easily found since they are pretty new ish into the market.

https://www.josef-lidl.cz/product-page/ ... bb-684-4gr

St Petersburg makes a 4/4 BBb rotary. They are decent. I personally am NOT a fan of the Yamaha 641 at all. I'd rather have the Saint Pete if it was going to be my personal horn.

https://www.tubaexchange.com/products/s ... -model-202

Also new ish to the market, Miraphone makes another 4/4 Rotary BBb, called the 495. I like it more than the 186. But finding a used one might be a challenge.

https://www.dillonmusic.com/miraphone-m ... -tuba.html

The B&S is great! Another B&S Rotary that is no longer available new, but can be found used is the B&S (also known as the VMI) 3103 BBb tuba. The 3103 was also know as the pt1.

PT1/B&S 3103/VMI 103/Accent 952
https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=3901

Reverb is cool that you can still view the photos!
https://reverb.com/item/28939856-b-s-31 ... ncert-tuba

Best of luck!

[je]

I'm also looking for rotary valves because all of the pistons that I have dealt with so far have been really sticky, no matter what I do. Unless someone can convince me that pistons can be not bad, then I might consider a piston horn, but otherwise a 4 valve rotary

My observation has been that pistons require more routine maintenance than rotors, but that piston maintenance is much easier than rotor maintenance. Both can work very well. I would suggest that you choose a tuba style based on the sound you like, rather than the valve design. And then make sure that the valves are in good working order.

[Rick Denney]

Your budget will find older Miraphone 186 tubas in good playing condition. You'll probably need to kick in a bit more for a 186 that also looks closer to new. If you keep it in good condition, it will never be worth less, and so even if you move on to something else, the cost of ownership is ultimately very low. The 186 is a high-versatility tuba good enough for professional use and easy enough to play well that amateurs also love it. In your shoes it would be my first choice. Bigger tubas are big fun unless you are invited to play in a quintet, and smaller tubas that might be fine in the quintet might not carry the weight in a concert band. A Meinl-Weston 25 would be similar but a lot more scarce, especially on the west coast.

There is a reason the Miraphone 186 is the standard by which others are measured for this application.

Yamaha instruments range from merely competent to outstanding. The 641 is merely competent :) And it probably won't be cheaper than a Miraphone. Other Yamahas are, in my view, too small to be general-purpose instruments. (I'm assuming you don't want a top-action piston instrument.) I would say the same for instruments like the old Conn xJ's, Olds O-99, or the other old American equivalents. Fun to play but just not big enough to be really versatile. The big old American tubas that use front-action valves won't be in your price range in good playing condition.

If I needed a decent and versatile rotary instrument for less than what an old 186 would cost, I'd be looking for a Cerveny/Amati or one of the many rebadges of the B&S 101 or 103. Neither will have intonation as good as the 186, but they will sound good and give value. I owned a 4/4 rotary Cerveny back in the day that was actually quite a good tuba, especially for what it cost. (Lidl is currently making the Cerveny tubas, I think.) But I just recently bought an old 186 in good playing condition (but not in great aesthetic condition) for well under your budget, so I'm not sure you have to compromise.

There are Chinese equivalents of all of these, some pretty decent and others not so much. They will be more affordable but they won't hold their value as well as the originals.

Stay away from St. Petersburg. They can be decent but they can also be junk and they really need to be owned by someone who can deal with their issues.

For piston Bb's for community band use, the King 1241/2341 are the standard. An old 1241 will be cheaper but condition may be an issue. The old-style 2341's were tall with removeable bells--those were just newer versions of the 1241 but they are also pretty old at this point. The current style is much more compact with fixed bells, and that's what you also see with the good Chinese copies like an Eastman EBB534. Those won't sell for any less than a 186 in decent condition. They make a bigger sound than their compact shape would imply and can hold their own in a concert band.

Another very decent piston Bb is the VMI3301, which may be branded F. Schmidt or whatever. There's a thread about one for sale on Craigslist or Facebook down the page a bit. These will be priced similarly to Miraphones in similar condition.

Don't get hung up on piston vs. rotary. All of them can work if in good condition and when kept clean and oiled. All of them can be a nightmare if the instrument has damage that tweaks the valve casings, or if they are dirty or worn out.

Rick "has played them all at one time or another" Denney

[OhTubaGuy]

While it helps to narrow down to some target models, I think it is most critical to put some notes through any horn that you are considering. That could mean that location and accessibility are more important than model.

I loved the concept and cost of the Wessex Excelsior, but when I played a few notes I quickly put it down and moved on.

Agree that piston and rotary are equally functional when maintained.

Good luck!

[bloke]

I loved the concept and cost of the Wessex Excelsior, but when I played a few notes I quickly put it down and moved on.

Is that the model where they took the Hirsbrunner 4/4 BB-flat copy body and put a sort of tucked under compensating valve section on it?

[Kevbach33]

I loved the concept and cost of the Wessex Excelsior, but when I played a few notes I quickly put it down and moved on.

Is that the model where they took the Hirsbrunner 4/4 BB-flat copy body and put a sort of tucked under compensating valve section on it?

Yup, that's the one.

Then they took their 6/4 bugles (both Grand and Prokofiev) and made comp versions (Leviathans) using a rotary valve. I'd like to try one of these, cost aside, based on my short experience with a Prokofiev. (No use for it nor could I justify the cost but man, that was actually an excellent tuba...)

Still, it was clear the brass band bassists weren't pleased.

So now they have one (Conquerer) largely based on the current Besson body complete with a large flare. Seems that body style will not go away any time soon...

But I digress. To the OP:

Definitely read through the recent 186 vs PT-1 thread. There's good info there.

[catgrowlB]

I'm one of the few weirdos that actually likes the YBB-641. They are maybe not as 'colorful' in sound as other similar tubas, but they will have a good characteristic tuba sound if you play it decently. It's a more 'vanilla', yet rounder sound and doesn't 'blat' like the Miraphone 186.
I find the build quality, response and intonation to also be good on the YBB-641.

The B&S GR-51 is really more a 5/4 tuba. Just look at the dimensions -- bell stack, bottom bow, wrap, height, etc. I dunno who made the blunder in marketing that tuba as 4/4 ( ) but its pretty much a rotary BBb MW 'Thor', which is a 5/4 CC. It's larger than the "5/4" MW-2155 and MW-2000 CC piston CC tubas, which were really larger 4/4+ tubas.

I'd look for a good condition VMI 103, or MW-25. Those are both 4/4+ rotary BBb tubas that play/sound great and have great build quality. They can be found in your budget. To me, the MW-25 is probably my favorite of all these rotary BBb tubas. I think it's particular 'throaty-yet-velvety-round' sound profile would be great in band and orchestra. The intonation and response is good up and down, and the slides are very eccessible for fine-tuning.

[arpthark]

edit: was totally wrong, disregard!

[A_Brass_Guy]

Thank you for all of the responses so far, now I'll try to address any questions that were posted.

What are your plans next year? If you are going to college I would say wait to buy anything. Most schools will have tubas that non-music majors can use.

Hello Gocsick, next year I will be going to my local community college, so I don't know what they have in the means of tubas for students to use, but I will look into it, because maybe they will be willing to lend me something for the time that I am with them.

TRY/BEG/CHEAT/STEAL to get private lessons next year at college. Even though you're not a music major, some colleges will let you take lessons (it's worked well for many of my string students). Plead your case, tell them that you want to be a skilled amateur, but need to borrow a tuba, but you'll pay it back through hard work and practice. Audition for ensembles, practice your butt off, (it's better than drinking/partying, not that a good beer doesn't taste excellent after a good practice session/lesson/rehearsal. Just one, and a good beer, not a keg of swill.)

If you do this, you'll get to try all kinds of tubas, and learn what your "voice" is. I'm kinda a brash, angry, yellin' Gen Xer, so my 1960 186CC fits my "voice" perfectly. Patience, try stuff, save your current money and add to it.

Hello Prodigal, while I do think that private lessons would be great for my tuba playing, I will probably be bogged down with trombone lessons, general college classes, work and other things, so while it's a great idea, I just don't know if I will have time in my future. But besides that, the community college that I am going to might still be willing to lend me an instrument, so I will keep it in mind.

I am also really just wanting to have my own stable instrument, rather than the limbo that a school horn is constantly in. And while I am probably completely wrong, from my understanding most used tubas hold their value as long as you treat them well, so I could at least sell it at a future date if I find something I like better or have enough money for something even nicer. I am also mildly worried that if I wait too long the cost of a tuba will just continue to rise and that my extra saved money will end up getting me the same thing. But again, I'm probably completely wrong and am just a naive kid rushing things and having no patience, but what can I say.

For a more informed choice, you might check out the horns that Dan Oberloh has at his shop since you're in his general area. He has a PT-605 (which I think is the same as the GR51) and a 186 last time I checked his web page

Thank you Hrender, that is a great resource for me, as I haven't been able to find anywhere that will let me try tubas, or even had any on-location. So I might have to look into this and make the trip up to Seattle one day.

Where in western Washington? It's a large place. Going to college? Lots of good advice posted above if you are. You have had some bad experience with pistons, but they must be good or nobody would buy them.

Hello Charlie, I live west of Olympia, the capital, and I'll be going to my local Community College. And yeah, I do suppose that your right, and that no one would use a piston horn if they are all bad, guess I'm just more worried of getting another bad one. So I'll have to possibly look into pistons.

Your budget will find older Miraphone 186 tubas in good playing condition. You'll probably need to kick in a bit more for a 186 that also looks closer to new. If you keep it in good condition, it will never be worth less, and so even if you move on to something else, the cost of ownership is ultimately very low. The 186 is a high-versatility tuba good enough for professional use and easy enough to play well that amateurs also love it. In your shoes it would be my first choice. Bigger tubas are big fun unless you are invited to play in a quintet, and smaller tubas that might be fine in the quintet might not carry the weight in a concert band. A Meinl-Weston 25 would be similar but a lot more scarce, especially on the west coast.

There is a reason the Miraphone 186 is the standard by which others are measured for this application.

There are Chinese equivalents of all of these, some pretty decent and others not so much. They will be more affordable but they won't hold their value as well as the originals.

Stay away from St. Petersburg. They can be decent but they can also be junk and they really need to be owned by someone who can deal with their issues.

For piston Bb's for community band use, the King 1241/2341 are the standard. An old 1241 will be cheaper but condition may be an issue. The old-style 2341's were tall with removeable bells--those were just newer versions of the 1241 but they are also pretty old at this point. The current style is much more compact with fixed bells, and that's what you also see with the good Chinese copies like an Eastman EBB534. Those won't sell for any less than a 186 in decent condition. They make a bigger sound than their compact shape would imply and can hold their own in a concert band.

Don't get hung up on piston vs. rotary. All of them can work if in good condition and when kept clean and oiled. All of them can be a nightmare if the instrument has damage that tweaks the valve casings, or if they are dirty or worn out.

Thanks for all of the information Mr. Denney, and I''l keep it all in mind as I search.

I'm one of the few weirdos that actually likes the YBB-641. They are maybe not as 'colorful' in sound as other similar tubas, but they will have a good characteristic tuba sound if you play it decently. It's a more 'vanilla', yet rounder sound and doesn't 'blat' like the Miraphone 186.
I find the build quality, response and intonation to also be good on the YBB-641.

Thanks CatgrowlB, It is good to see that the YBB 641 isn't necessarily bad, just a bit more plain. And thanks for the other tips as well.

And thanks to everyone who commented so far with all of the tips and suggestions. I’ll be sure to take it all into account on my search, and I’ll make sure to start including piston horns in my search, I’ll just make sure I don’t get a bad one this time. :)

[Bob Kolada]

My favorite, 4/4ish contrabass tuba is the Miraphone 1291 Bb. The 191 has a better sound (and a magnificent low register!) but I find the 1291 plays much easier (particularly around D-B below the staff) and has much better ergonomics (tall guy). I played a few normie horns, Conn 56j and a 187, for several years in the Army. The Conn sucked, and I've never liked the 2341, and the 187 was great but I would never choose to use it as a do everything tuba. I recently heard a gentleman on a MW 25 and he sounds just as magnificent as when I played with him 15 years ago; I see that whole category as more of a midsized Kaiser.

The Miraphone Hagens are a very interesting family; just going off videos it seems the 3/4 and the 6/4 are the standouts.

Ye old tubenet had a guy from the west coast (named Chris?) who was really big on his 1291 Bb.

[prodigal]

I may be able to give you a B&S PT-1 vs big bell Miraphone 186 BBb vs old, small bell Mirafone 186CC review soon.

[humBell]

edit: was totally wrong, disregard!

Me too.
So don't feel bad.

hum "get the right mouthpiece and a beater eb, then play the snot out of them." Bell

[Mary Ann]

hum "get the right mouthpiece and a beater eb, then play the snot out of them." Bell

Not so far off; that 183 Eb that I have has a more open low register than the NStar. Doesn't have as good intonation, but otherwise, I could have just kept playing that if I couldn't have afforded the NStar. And it clearly likes the 7B, which doesn't work for me on the NStar. They all have their personalities!

[marccromme]

A cheaper alternative is a used 4/4 Cerveny 681-4 which might be suitable for your needs. There is one for sale here .... https://www.tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php ... 44#p125744