Re: The quest to find a 5/4 version of a 188
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:08 pm
I have nothing useful or valuable to contribute to this thread. I don't play C and I've never owned or understood the 188. But I'm going to contribute it anyway. :)
At my level of talent, I value ease of response and sound efficiency above most other attributes (assuming workable intonation, of course). Sound efficiency means that the sound it makes has some color to it and some energy, giving the impression that the player has spirited intentions. I'm not interested in sounds like a black hole.
My direction has at times been the wide American concept--a York Master (at best an approximation of that concept) plus the current Eastman EBB534 (a King clone) and, of course, the Holton 345. The latter two in particular put zip on top of the wide floor of sound that sort of tuba makes, so that they avoid black-hole woofiness and speak with clarity. But they make round tones that don't punch in a dead hall, or that don't align well with the more brilliant shape of trombone and trumpet tone. I had bought the Eastman in hopes of having a contrabass that would work with quintet, but it's too broad, too circular. These are, to me, the opposite of the 188 concept, which seems to me clear, penetrating, and focused--the bass singer in the big choral group that gets tapped to sing the bass solos because his voice carries with operatic authority.
I think the 188 was Miraphone's answer to the Alexander 163--more output than a 186 in a big ensemble and more ability to punch through--but with workable intonation. We should remember that Miraphone is a commercial concern, just like Alexander, and as such needed a product in their line that would fill that niche and compete. I think the West-Coast tuba royalty really made the 188 famous.
More recently, I've been exploring that direction--penetration and focus--because it works better in the dead, deader, deadest school auditoriums we play in. Less floor but more voice. That has led me ultimately to my three rotary Bb tubas, a Miraphone 184, a Giardinelli (B&S) 101, and a Hirsbrunner HBS193. I think that lineup skips the niche filled by the 188 altogether. The 101 was originally designed at the Hess factory by the same guy (Andreas Cronlein) who created the seminal designs of Alexander back well before WWII, and well before Hess was absorbed into VEB Sachsen (later B&S) under Communist East Germany. But it is smaller (by a shade) than the 163 and can't be called an oversized 4/4 like the 188 and the 163.
Bort, I know that a 163 was part of your quest, and you didn't think of it as a 5/4, but it wasn't intended to be, just as the 188 wasn't intended to be. The classic German 5/4 is intended for Kontrabasstuba parts with a capital K, not as the German rotary version of a Yorkophone. All those 6/4 rotary tubas you have tried seem to be to attempt that role--a Yorkish tuba to tap the American appetite for width. But you were thinking of the Alex as an enlarged 188, while really Miraphone was thinking of the 188 as competition for the 163. The 163 was the model the 188 was trying to simulate, not the reverse--it was there first. The enlarged version would be the 164.
If you want it to be like a 188 but bigger, you first have to be able to articulate what it is about the 188 that appeals to you. I suspect it has something to do with the response, agility and clarity of a 4/4 but with a more carrying power (just like the 163). A 5/4, though, isn't trying to do that. It's trying to move earth first, but do so with as much agility and clarity as possible while doing so. My Hirsbrunner makes a much bigger and more powerful sound than that Giardinelli/B&S 101, but at a cost of playability. You can't have one (more size and power) without the other (less agility and playability), though some come closer than others. Kaisertubas do not start with response, agility and clarity as the primary attributes and then add oomph, they start with oomph and then try to find as much of that other stuff as possible without undermining the oomph. They were not made to be generalists--they were made to be specialists. A German 5/4 may look like a 4/4 on steroids, but to me it's a different animal.
(Actually, Joe's FatBastard comes about as close as any of them, and I've never played a C that played like that Bb FatBastard.)
So, the Rudi 5/4 would be less likely to be like a bigger 188 than would a 4/4, but Rudi isn't trying to be like Miraphone, he's trying to be like Alexander of old (or he's trying to be like what Alexander of old was trying to be, predating Miraphone altogether). And the 5/4 RM isn't trying to be like a 163, it's trying to be like the 164.
There is a lesson in your story, though, to be heeded by younger folk: If you love a particular instrument and what it does for you, don't sell it. Just don't. Sell other things first, up to and including pencils on the street corner. I do not regret selling the tubas I have sold, even including the 186 and the York Master. I enjoyed them, and learned from them, and was humbled by them, but eventually they were business partners not lovers. Selling the tubas I have kept would be like selling children. But I hung on to the York Master and the Miraphone both for long years after I knew I was done with them, just in case I was wrong.
Like I said, nothing to contribute at all, but whatever.
Rick "don't ask a cat to do a dog's job" Denney
At my level of talent, I value ease of response and sound efficiency above most other attributes (assuming workable intonation, of course). Sound efficiency means that the sound it makes has some color to it and some energy, giving the impression that the player has spirited intentions. I'm not interested in sounds like a black hole.
My direction has at times been the wide American concept--a York Master (at best an approximation of that concept) plus the current Eastman EBB534 (a King clone) and, of course, the Holton 345. The latter two in particular put zip on top of the wide floor of sound that sort of tuba makes, so that they avoid black-hole woofiness and speak with clarity. But they make round tones that don't punch in a dead hall, or that don't align well with the more brilliant shape of trombone and trumpet tone. I had bought the Eastman in hopes of having a contrabass that would work with quintet, but it's too broad, too circular. These are, to me, the opposite of the 188 concept, which seems to me clear, penetrating, and focused--the bass singer in the big choral group that gets tapped to sing the bass solos because his voice carries with operatic authority.
I think the 188 was Miraphone's answer to the Alexander 163--more output than a 186 in a big ensemble and more ability to punch through--but with workable intonation. We should remember that Miraphone is a commercial concern, just like Alexander, and as such needed a product in their line that would fill that niche and compete. I think the West-Coast tuba royalty really made the 188 famous.
More recently, I've been exploring that direction--penetration and focus--because it works better in the dead, deader, deadest school auditoriums we play in. Less floor but more voice. That has led me ultimately to my three rotary Bb tubas, a Miraphone 184, a Giardinelli (B&S) 101, and a Hirsbrunner HBS193. I think that lineup skips the niche filled by the 188 altogether. The 101 was originally designed at the Hess factory by the same guy (Andreas Cronlein) who created the seminal designs of Alexander back well before WWII, and well before Hess was absorbed into VEB Sachsen (later B&S) under Communist East Germany. But it is smaller (by a shade) than the 163 and can't be called an oversized 4/4 like the 188 and the 163.
Bort, I know that a 163 was part of your quest, and you didn't think of it as a 5/4, but it wasn't intended to be, just as the 188 wasn't intended to be. The classic German 5/4 is intended for Kontrabasstuba parts with a capital K, not as the German rotary version of a Yorkophone. All those 6/4 rotary tubas you have tried seem to be to attempt that role--a Yorkish tuba to tap the American appetite for width. But you were thinking of the Alex as an enlarged 188, while really Miraphone was thinking of the 188 as competition for the 163. The 163 was the model the 188 was trying to simulate, not the reverse--it was there first. The enlarged version would be the 164.
If you want it to be like a 188 but bigger, you first have to be able to articulate what it is about the 188 that appeals to you. I suspect it has something to do with the response, agility and clarity of a 4/4 but with a more carrying power (just like the 163). A 5/4, though, isn't trying to do that. It's trying to move earth first, but do so with as much agility and clarity as possible while doing so. My Hirsbrunner makes a much bigger and more powerful sound than that Giardinelli/B&S 101, but at a cost of playability. You can't have one (more size and power) without the other (less agility and playability), though some come closer than others. Kaisertubas do not start with response, agility and clarity as the primary attributes and then add oomph, they start with oomph and then try to find as much of that other stuff as possible without undermining the oomph. They were not made to be generalists--they were made to be specialists. A German 5/4 may look like a 4/4 on steroids, but to me it's a different animal.
(Actually, Joe's FatBastard comes about as close as any of them, and I've never played a C that played like that Bb FatBastard.)
So, the Rudi 5/4 would be less likely to be like a bigger 188 than would a 4/4, but Rudi isn't trying to be like Miraphone, he's trying to be like Alexander of old (or he's trying to be like what Alexander of old was trying to be, predating Miraphone altogether). And the 5/4 RM isn't trying to be like a 163, it's trying to be like the 164.
There is a lesson in your story, though, to be heeded by younger folk: If you love a particular instrument and what it does for you, don't sell it. Just don't. Sell other things first, up to and including pencils on the street corner. I do not regret selling the tubas I have sold, even including the 186 and the York Master. I enjoyed them, and learned from them, and was humbled by them, but eventually they were business partners not lovers. Selling the tubas I have kept would be like selling children. But I hung on to the York Master and the Miraphone both for long years after I knew I was done with them, just in case I was wrong.
Like I said, nothing to contribute at all, but whatever.
Rick "don't ask a cat to do a dog's job" Denney
and only adding to my at the time still exorbitant student loan debt
