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I also think there's a good deal of responsibility on tuba players for horn choice. Because a bad tuba sound can't be hidden, and really screws up the sound of the whole band. Many times, I've been the only tuba player in a band, including some pretty decent sized groups (60-70+). The Miraphone 1291 was ideal for that, a great mix of volume, presence, and just direct "output". I think the ideal all around quality of it was best summarized as "strong."

I've heard other bands where...
... One smaller tuba in a large group, which is audible but clearly not enough. Even worse, when that "not enough" is pushed to it's last 5%, it's just not a good sound
... One very large tuba, which is more present than cutting, which provides an exhausting to hear blanket of sound. Kind of like during these basketball games, where the pep band has an electric bass, and it's this droning "is bass" sound with no color or personality. Yeah it's fulfilling the role of "bass notes," but jeez, it's just lifeless.
... Various combo tuba sections, where the tuba sound itself is alright, but the rest of the low brass is MIA... Which makes the tuba sound pretty strange too.

One of my favorite things though is showing up to a group for the first time where the tuba sound is weak, lacking or even just a vacant spot. Not for my own ego -- I'm going to miss plenty of notes, trust me -- but because it seems like a strong tuba sound seems to make the entire group sound better, and makes the music make sense. And when that happens, everyone starts to play and sound better.

I may miss a few notes, but you'll damn sure know I'm back there.

PS -- REALLY missing that 5/4 Rudy BBb these days.

I sell these things, but I do my very best to dissuade youngsters from buying 6/4 horns. They'd regret it when they have to play a full recital on one, or when they foist their "big, beautiful sound" on an unappreciative quintet.

For myself, I'm grateful I did most of my early, serious practicing on a 186-5U, where every attack was so clear that any artifacts could be easily heard and addressed in daily practice. Not so with the big woof-o-phones.

6/4 tubas have always been “band tubas” to me, meant to emulate the sound of a string bass section.

Many of my favorite recordings, Bobo w/LA Phil, Deck on that old Geib rotor tuba with NYPO, Richard Watson on his Alexander CC with Hawaii, Mike Thornton with an Alex CC in Cincinnati, Mariinski Orchestra (St. Petersburg BBb) have power, clarity and precision.

My DMA professor, Jim Akins, was principal tubist of the Columbus Symphony for nearly 40 years—while I was there he used a Cerveny Piggy (due to his first York getting stolen) and another original factory York 4/4 CC and heard several performances live. I also heard plenty of recordings of him on a Kalison Daryl Smith and a Conn 54J. He played the horn with depth, and the horn was crystal clear with tons of projection. In fact, Arnold Jacobs offered to trade Bob LeBlanc one of the CSO 6/4 Yorks for the 4/4 York CC since Jacobs preferred the smaller horn.

I have never had issues with my Miraphone 1291. I normally recommend students get a 4/4 to smaller 5/4 BBb or CC that fits them well physically so they can be versatile and efficient. I play the above performers and shock students when the horns are way smaller than the ones they want. Even when I was growing up, people kept mentioning XYZ horn won these jobs. Now, it was XYZ person and they happened to use those horns.

the elephant wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:32 am I think the generic US university tuba studio has been producing a lot of really woofy and indistinct players for many years now.

On a personal note, I remember going to an audition where all these young guys showed up with 2165s. It was hilarious. Listening to them woof and hoot their way through Fountains and The Ride had me in stitches. It sounded like a bunch of blue whales yawning and groaning in the warmup room. That was a long time ago. I cannot imagine what happens today in these situations. But I imagine the same sort of impromptu "Mutual Admiration Society" springs up and no one gets better because everyone is "satisfied" with being hooty and woofy.

"Dude, I like your 2165. You sound awesome."

"Thanks, dude. I like *your* 2165. And you sound awesome, too."

"Thanks, dude. Is that a Prana 94?"

"Yeah, dude. It's really making this 2165 dump maximum darkness and volume."

"Great to hear, dude. Mine arrives in three to six months."

"Awesome, dude."

"Thanks, dude."



What would kids like this do without Stage Mom and Stage Dad bankrolling this sort of idiocy?

But like...dude

@the elephant

actually: PT50

Those do a really good job of covering up "stuff".

bloke "...and I mean that in a GOOD way"

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:40 pm @the elephant

actually: PT50

Those do a really good job of covering up "stuff".

bloke "...and I mean that in a GOOD way"

I "upgraded" from a PT-50 to a Houser replica of the Deck 3.

My sound "upgraded" to extreme woof.

I've since "downgraded" to some weird mouthpiece with a deer on it.

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:45 pm I've since "downgraded" to some weird mouthpiece with a deer on it.

Ooh, a Hirsbrunner!

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:58 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:45 pm I've since "downgraded" to some weird mouthpiece with a deer on it.

Ooh, a Hirsbrunner!

speaking of big and heavy...

' you thirsty?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/400000-gal ... el-energy/

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:10 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:58 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:45 pm I've since "downgraded" to some weird mouthpiece with a deer on it.

Ooh, a Hirsbrunner!

speaking of big and heavy...

' you thirsty?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/400000-gal ... el-energy/

That's right... NOW who wants to divert Mississippi River water to the southwest? What what!!

So it is after all the tuba that makes the sound, and not so much the player? And you know from the size of the tuba what you're going to get - big tuba = blanket of sound, medium size tuba = feeble clarity?

I haven't played enough tubas, I guess. They certainly didn't all sound the same when I played them, so sure, the tuba matters, but they haven't really followed from size. My big BBb Kalison is not so much different in size from the Holton 109 that preceded it, but the latter was much "darker." With the Holton, my model for sound was the edge that hundreds of old guys who played Conn 20Js etc. in small bands could put out. Tubas like that, and sousaphones, go back to dance bands before amplification made it possible to use string bass, and they didn't show up for recording sessions because someone needed a "blanket of sound."

I know you all are talking about orchestra settings, because that's where all the tubas really are. Maybe you don't want to sound exactly like Walter Page with his Blue Devils. Or maybe that would be worth a shot, but anyway I'm just thinking some players might be able to do a little something with a big tuba to provide the presence that seems to be absent.

From my perspective, there's a lot of tuba playing that is not orchestral. In fact it seems most tuba playing is not orchestral. Bands, quintet, dixieland, jazz/combo, etc...so there's very little need for all those bats.

When I was at NEC in the mid 80s I had a few tuba playing friends. One had a piggy because he knew he was going to be carrying it as much as playing it. Another one had a 186, and the third was a little guy with braces that hung out with Pilafian, so I'm sure he didn't have a huge horn.

The same size obsession hits bone players too. Tenor players are starting to understand the merits of smaller horns, but bass players definitely don't get it. Bass trombone sound is getting woofy as well.

In my situation today, I run into tuba players with mostly small and medium sized Ebs. I have a very small Bb mainly to keep the fingerings easy. I only take the tuba out of the house a couple times a year for shitty ditty gigs when someone is really desperate and a euph or bass bone won't do.

donn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:31 am So it is after all the tuba that makes the sound, and not so much the player? And you know from the size of the tuba what you're going to get - big tuba = blanket of sound, medium size tuba = feeble clarity?

I haven't played enough tubas, I guess. They certainly didn't all sound the same when I played them, so sure, the tuba matters, but they haven't really followed from size. My big BBb Kalison is not so much different in size from the Holton 109 that preceded it, but the latter was much "darker." With the Holton, my model for sound was the edge that hundreds of old guys who played Conn 20Js etc. in small bands could put out. Tubas like that, and sousaphones, go back to dance bands before amplification made it possible to use string bass, and they didn't show up for recording sessions because someone needed a "blanket of sound."

I know you all are talking about orchestra settings, because that's where all the tubas really are. Maybe you don't want to sound exactly like Walter Page with his Blue Devils. Or maybe that would be worth a shot, but anyway I'm just thinking some players might be able to do a little something with a big tuba to provide the presence that seems to be absent.

@donn, you moved to Portugal?

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:30 am The same size obsession hits bone players too. Tenor players are starting to understand the merits of smaller horns, but bass players definitely don't get it. Bass trombone sound is getting woofy as well.

Eh... I guess it depends on the arena and individual. My obsession with size is making sure my setup is not too big.

As I have said elsewhere, I only play bass bone in jazz/big band work, meaning I strive for a brighter, clear sound. My previous horn (a Besson Sovereign 943GS, big throat 10" rose brass bell with light nickel silver slide) was not the right answer for me. Too big, heavy and unfocused, even on a smaller mouthpiece.

Now that I have my Getzen Eterna (a pretty light 9.5" yellow bell with a heavy yellow slide) I can go bigger (read: wider) on my mouthpiece (currently a Schilke 59) and still retain a sense of clarity and snap needed for the playing I do. A gigantic sound — and far more importantly, the exaggerated soft parts — don't have to have woof to the tone with the right approach and setup.

It's ironic because my large tenor has a 9" red brass bell and heavy nickel silver slide with yellow crook, and if I don't keep my cup depth in check it's rather overwhelming.

I'd tend to agree with some of the opinions expressed here. With the advent of affordable 6/4's there's probably a lot of players (maybe some younger ones) that have them and get drowned with these big horns. As a young player I was no exception when I first bought an older Meinl Weston 2165. However, I did spend many, many hours practicing to refine my skills and believe I could make that big tuba sound very clear and refined. When I later switched to a York-copy it felt like playing on a 4/4 tuba compared to the 2165. I do think it's all about how much time you're willing to put into a tuba. There's no reason a 6/4 horn should sound tubby and colourless if you're putting in the work IMO. Whether that amount of work is worth it is entirely up to you.
For me personally, I've never found a 5/4 tuba that quite combines all the nice attributes of a good York copy. I'll be the first one in line to get one when it comes out. There's not really that many options if you want a 5/4 piston CC tuba. Thor, PT-6P, Miraphone 129X, Wilson ? I find them all lacking something compared to the handmade 6/4 tubas available.

I really wish there was an excellent handmade 5/4 Piston CC on the market. Maybe Rudy Meinl makes one? I think there's potential for something great to happen if Meinl Weston, B&S or another big brand decided to make one. It seems like the 5/4 models are never made to the same quality as the handmade 6/4 instruments. E.g there's a 6450/2 but there isn't a MW 5450/2.

A tuba that could work really well would be a B&S MRP-C piston version made from hand hammered sheet brass. I'll be curious to see if that ever comes to fruition. I'm very doubtful though

After all these years, I've ended up with a 6/4 B-flat (German made and rotary valves) but it's somewhat of a of a hybrid that sits on the fence between a German kaiser orchestra tuba and an early 20th century "American" design 6/4 B-flat string bass substitute (the original B-flat versions of the factory cutdown C instruments which are being discussed in this thread).

>>> That's neither here nor there <<< , but what I really wanted to express was the fact that this instrument is hand-made of sheet brass, and I don't think it would sound any different were in hydraulically formed, but would just weigh about three or four pounds more, and I wouldn't have to be quite as careful with it...and I sorta doubt that it would've cost any less.

JC2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:20 am I really wish there was an excellent handmade 5/4 Piston CC on the market. Maybe Rudy Meinl makes one? I think there's potential for something great to happen if Meinl Weston, B&S or another big brand decided to make one. It seems like the 5/4 models are never made to the same quality as the handmade 6/4 instruments. E.g there's a 6450/2 but there isn't a MW 5450/2.

A tuba that could work really well would be a B&S MRP-C piston version made from hand hammered sheet brass. I'll be curious to see if that ever comes to fruition. I'm very doubtful though

You should look for an older PT-6... the earliest ones (early 90s?) were fully handmade. I owned a rotary PT6 from this era and it was fantastic. It was lively and had the "zip" that often comes with a fully handmade instrument. It weighted only 22 pounds!

Would a Gronitz PCK be too big for you?

Are Adams tubas fully handmade?

I doubt there's much interest from Meinl Weston to make /2 versions of many instruments... and sort of wonder if the 6450/2 only exists because el jefe wanted that for himself, so they made it an option for anyone.

FWIW, my understanding is that for the MW "/2" instruments and all B&S instruments, the large bows are sort of handmade by default... they are cut from sheet brass, brazed and hand-formed into conical sections, but then hydraulically formed for the last 5-10% to make sure that it's exactly the right size and taper. So, not 100% hand formed, but 90% is a whole lot better than doing it all hydraulically.

FWIW #2, the whole "issue" with hydraulically formed bows/tubing anyway is that when it's blown the material on the resulting bows is not of even thickness... the brass is thicker on the small end, and thinner on the large end. When these pieces are assembled end-to-end, the joints all have these uneven thick/thin parts butted up against each other, and this lack of smoothness at the joints -- multiple times over -- can cause disruptions to the sound waves/air/etc. However, the effects of this could be minor, and could be outweighed by the benefits of computerization and very high tolerances to design specs (low error).

When the bows/tubing are fully hand-formed, you can achieve a much more even thickness (or thinness, rater) of the brass, and eliminate those thick/thin joints between pieces of tubing... nice and smooth. The tradeoff, though, is human error... even if the parts are built well, they might be off-spec by some amount, and the effects of multiple parts that are a little bit "off" can quickly compound. That's why there's a lot of variation in handmade instruments -- some are spectacular, some are pitchy... but they all sound and respond great, so a lot of people tend to accept more intonation stuff than we should.

The MW/B&S method of doing 90% handmade and 10% machine-finished seems like a pretty fair tradeoff.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:02 am @donn, you moved to Portugal?

I did, little city in central Portugal. My tubas will be coming along, but they haven't got very far yet. Not sure it matters - they might not be shiny enough to appear in public here. Appearance is really the important thing about a tuba - it should be big, and shiny if you're playing legit stuff, not shiny otherwise. If you go to see a band and the tuba is small ... it's kind of a rip-off, isn't it?

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:30 am From my perspective, there's a lot of tuba playing that is not orchestral. In fact it seems most tuba playing is not orchestral. Bands, quintet, dixieland, jazz/combo, etc...so there's very little need for all those bats.

Sure, no dixieland tuba player would go for something like a Conn 20J or the same size Martin.

donn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:02 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:02 am @donn, you moved to Portugal?

I did, little city in central Portugal. My tubas will be coming along, but they haven't got very far yet. Not sure it matters - they might not be shiny enough to appear in public here. Appearance is really the important thing about a tuba - it should be big, and shiny if you're playing legit stuff, not shiny otherwise. If you go to see a band and the tuba is small ... it's kind of a rip-off, isn't it?

...and I thought only old British people moved to Portugal!

But really, that's very cool. We'll need to see pictures, though...!

In a place as bright and sunny as Portugal, I'd think you should have something as NON-shiny as possible. Those gleaming/reflecting bells are just so impolite!

https://youtu.be/7VJvNkEIIzA

Gene Pokorny did this on an HB2. Why do I need a 6/4 tuba when you can sound like this?