6/4 glut

[arpthark]

What do you think about the recent trend of younger players/college students buying newer affordable 6/4 CC York copies, like the Eastman 836, Wessex, and ZO, as their primary contrabass instrument throughout their undergraduate studies?

[bort2.0]

Oh, it makes perfect sense to me... there are SO many other places in life where you should start with the "most" of something and then just deal with the inconvenience of making it work.

Such as:
Steel-toe boots
GMC Yukon
80-inch television
3-foot party subs
Super Big Gulp
Canada Goose coats (when you live in a place that's not actually cold)

Yeah... perfect ideas all-around for owning one of something...

[bort2.0]

But really, bringing only a 6/4 tuba to college is stupid and unsustainable.

You'll feel cool for a few months sitting in the back of the band, but for day to day everything use, you're going to figure out pretty quick that you're working way too hard to do things that should be easy.

When I was in college, the only two people with 6/4 tubas were Tom Holtz and Scott Cameron, who were both pursuing graduate degrees while they were in the President's Own // US Army Field Band... and were playing in the top-level wind ensemble. I think it was an HB-50 and a 2165...? Pretty sure they used those because that's what they were already using at work.

[Three Valves]

3-foot party subs
Super Big Gulp

[bort2.0]

3-foot party subs
Super Big Gulp

DO IT EVERY SINGLE TIME!

[the elephant]

I think the generic US university tuba studio has been producing a lot of really woofy and indistinct players for many years now.

On a personal note, I remember going to an audition where all these young guys showed up with 2165s. It was hilarious. Listening to them woof and hoot their way through Fountains and The Ride had me in stitches. It sounded like a bunch of blue whales yawning and groaning in the warmup room. That was a long time ago. I cannot imagine what happens today in these situations. But I imagine the same sort of impromptu "Mutual Admiration Society" springs up and no one gets better because everyone is "satisfied" with being hooty and woofy.

"Dude, I like your 2165. You sound awesome."

"Thanks, dude. I like *your* 2165. And you sound awesome, too."

"Thanks, dude. Is that a Prana 94?"

"Yeah, dude. It's really making this 2165 dump maximum darkness and volume."

"Great to hear, dude. Mine arrives in three to six months."

"Awesome, dude."

"Thanks, dude."



What would kids like this do without Stage Mom and Stage Dad bankrolling this sort of idiocy?

[bloke]

They're teaching principal players and trombone sections that tubas are supposed to sound like that.

Roger Bc.................Thank-you!....next applicant, please...

I went through four of five of those things (various models)...
You borrowed one for an extended period of time.
With that particular one, I eventually realized that I had done everything I could do to make it NOT sound like it was designed to sound (LOL...so why have it?).
For quite a few years, I've been on a "very large tuba" moratorium, until ONE (that I had discovered years ago - offered a defined/clear sound, and have been quite enamored with) was finally for sale in the used market.
Somehow, I believe that the "York" style things work better in B-flat than in C...(though almost no one markets this option). I believe the Yamaha thing works better than the others due to being a bit smaller than the others. When Yamaha was doing the R&D (and I was studying with Gene - who was receiving the prototypes), I recall him using one of the "rejects" during one of my lessons. "too tubby", he told me (though I couldn't really tell - out behind his parking place at Ravinia...but COULD tell - an hour later - when he was rehearsing "Til".)

[bort2.0]

The hardest part may be to convince some know-it-all 18-22 year olds that they are wrong. After all, getting to/through school they've been ego-propped so many times that they are the biggest baddest tuba player around. So why not have the actual biggest tuba as well?

Nobody wants to see or hear an 18 year old lumbering and woofing along on a 6/4 tuba on a solo, in a quintet, etc... it's not how they got good enough to get to college in the first place, and not having a 6/4 tuba is NOT the thing that will hold them back. Change 1 thing at a time... the big change for college should be to do the thing you've already done, but with a level of seriousness and and commitment that you didn't previously have. Maybe a 6/4 is in your future as a gateway to something or another... but probably not.

Note: I think it can be different for adults that want to use a 6/4 for everything. Not that the results will be better, but I think adults typically know what their goals are, and how a certain tool would support and make that goal easier, or more enjoyable. Plus, adults usually know how to NOT sound terrible, or that if they do sound terrible, they need to make changes to get better. Or, maybe they are just even MORE stubborn, and will do whatever it is they want to do, for whatever reason they choose.

[arpthark]

Plus, adults usually know how to NOT sound terrible, or that if they do sound terrible, they need to make changes to get better.

Well.......

Or, maybe they are just even MORE stubborn, and will do whatever it is they want to do, for whatever reason they choose.

That's the ticket!

People -- even 18 year olds twisting their parents' arms -- can do what they want, of course. Nobody, outside of the other tuba players and a few other token low-brassists, least of all the conductor, even if they are great, will care too much if you haul York #2 to community band rehearsal or even to your premiere orchestra rehearsal. But I am skeptical of the overall movement towards younger-and-younger players playing these instruments with suspect fundamental foundations. And undoubtedly wanting to add a MW 2250 F or one of its tubalikes to the arsenal down the road.

But I don't teach university toobah, so I guess it ain't my problem.

A trumpet player sees me carrying a Miraclone 410 CC to band rehearsal one night.

"That is a huge horn!"

(I suppose it is tall?)

I am later taking my Eastman 832 (4/4 CC) to another rehearsal with another group. A different trumpet player:

"Wow, the bore on that thing must be massive!"

I just smiled and nodded, not wanting to "well akshually" anybody.

[bloke]

I'm selling my epically superb handmade 186 5-valve C made in the 1960s and in mint condition, because I'm upgrading to a Chino-6/4.
THIS one: https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/mo ... e-up-d-it/

The hardest part may be to convince some know-it-all 18-22 year olds that they are wrong.

...or mostly anyone of any age and any level of "education"...



...and 99% of everyone - if someone attempts to convince them that they've been fooled - will get mad as hell.

[arpthark]

I'm selling my epically superb handmade 186 5-valve C made in the 1960s and in mint condition, because I'm upgrading to a Chino-6/4.
THIS one: https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/mo ... e-up-d-it/

'Twould take a lot of chinos for me to want to upgrade.

[Doug]

Now it's the Eastman 836 and Laskey 30H.

I think the generic US university tuba studio has been producing a lot of really woofy and indistinct players for many years now.

On a personal note, I remember going to an audition where all these young guys showed up with 2165s. It was hilarious. Listening to them woof and hoot their way through Fountains and The Ride had me in stitches. It sounded like a bunch of blue whales yawning and groaning in the warmup room. That was a long time ago. I cannot imagine what happens today in these situations. But I imagine the same sort of impromptu "Mutual Admiration Society" springs up and no one gets better because everyone is "satisfied" with being hooty and woofy.

"Dude, I like your 2165. You sound awesome."

"Thanks, dude. I like *your* 2165. And you sound awesome, too."

"Thanks, dude. Is that a Prana 94?"

"Yeah, dude. It's really making this 2165 dump maximum darkness and volume."

"Great to hear, dude. Mine arrives in three to six months."

"Awesome, dude."

"Thanks, dude."



What would kids like this do without Stage Mom and Stage Dad bankrolling this sort of idiocy?

But I don't teach university toobah, so I guess it ain't my problem.

I do and I try to tell my kiddos not to get anything bigger than a pt6 if they have aspirations of professional playing and something 4/4 (like the Eastman 832 or 632) if they don't.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[bloke]

OTOH...

Mostly-trombone-playing low brass fessers (who bought themselves a compensating E-flat, only play that tuba, taught themselves to noodle around on it pretty well, and consider themselves tuba players) are fooling themselves at the other end of the spectrum.

[arpthark]

I will always maintain, even though I may be wrong, that playing on bigger-and-bigger equipment, mouthpieces, overanalyzing my face, and trying to sound like Warren Deck when I was clearly not, exacerbated dystonia symptoms in my playing that have not (knock on wood) resurfaced ever since I quit the audition circuit.

I have a naturally bright sound and always felt most at home on bass tuba and medium sized contrabasses, but I was trying to coerce my face and oral cavity to do something it was not really cut out for, practicing 8 hours a day.

If the current market had been available when I was in school in the 2000s/2010s, I might've fallen into the hype, too. My teacher was not very gear-oriented and pushed no brand, despite being a Youknowhat Performing Artist, so we got a mix of things in the studio. Trying to remember:

Miraphone 1291 x 2
Miraphone 1292
Miraphone 1293
Thor x 2
PT-6 (me)
2155
2145
HB-21
Miraphone 188
Meister Walter Nirschl 4/4 CC

No Chinese tubas, and nothing bigger than a 5/4 CC.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[Sousaswag]

What college kids don’t yet understand is that most of them (probably) won’t win a job that will actually make the purchase of that horn and difficulty playing it worthwhile for them. The reality of the music business is harsh, and there’s W A Y more “professional” college kids than there are job openings. You also need to factor in the many people already out of school waiting for that audition to come up. Most of us around here agree that the 5/4 size stuff is just better all around for the audition circuit, yes?

I found this out during my first or second year of college when I heard kids 2 or 3 years younger than me playing the absolute snot out of the tuba and winning real jobs at 18 or 19. I thought I was going to win something and justify the 6/4 horn. Then I grew up and understood that just wasn’t going to happen for me. I found out early enough that I wasn’t going to win a job, and that I didn’t need that in order to feel happy and fulfilled in my life. I am perfectly content doing my own thing with the tuba and being a teacher.

I went through the bigger and bigger phase. Now, I have something smaller. The HB I currently have makes me very happy.

The MW 5450 tubas are the absolute best (imo) big horn that one could choose. I will pick up another one when life allows.

[bloke]

1980:

- "Wow, look how big that 188 is."

- Yorkbrunners and the handful of old Holtons: curiosities

[tubanh84]

I keep going back and forth on this. I don't recall a recent audition that has been won on anything other than a 6/4 York copy. So if the evidence shows that those models are a requirement if you want to win an audition, it makes perfect sense to me that anyone who aspires to win an audition would want to play one as their main horn. Sure a 188 is more well-rounded, versatile, easier to play, etc...But if you can't win an audition on it, and you want to win an audition, what's the point? Get the right tool for the job.

On the other hand, learning on "beginner" or "intermediate" tools is sometimes a faster way to develop your technique. So it could be argued that you need the 188 to learn to be a good player, and then move on to the horn that is "required" to win the audition and develop further.

Either way - to each his own. I personally don't love the product of most players on the 6/4 York copies. They can sound amazing in isolation (when played by a great player), which is why they likely win auditions (also aided by the fact that audition panels are at this point so used to the 6/4 York copies that the visual checks the box as much as the sound). But when put in a group, that colorful sound disappears. Because the "color" is "high overtones" which are supplied much more powerfully by the higher instruments. The little bit of fundamental doesn't cut through.

[bort2.0]

I think a York-style 6/4 only sounds as good as the bass trombone player. In orchestras, the bass trombone player has to be good to get the spot, so it's usually not too much of a problem.

In a band... Wow there's a lot of variation between truly good bass trombone players, just splatty players, and really weak players (like old guy players who bought the biggest new bass trombone because they could, but have no air to support it... Hrmm...)