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Big Francis wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:57 am There's a tuba player in the Twin Cities area that uses his YFB-822 in several high end civic groups. He's subbing in my community band for a couple concert cycles and the F tuba works just fine. It's already been said above, if you can play, community bands don't care what you're using.

Frank

The 822 is about the most CC-ish of F tubas that I've ever played. Low range, the low C, etc... all solid. Tradeoff is that it doesn't -- to me -- sound much like an F tuba, or at least not like a classic rotary F (duh, because it isn't).

But ... It's a sound that's unique to itself in many ways, sounds great, and is super flexible.

And certainly this is nothing negative intended towards the tuba player, just talking about the tuba itself. One of the best players I ever knew as a good friend used a 822 CC in college (and that was a "big tuba" to all of us). Incredible sound, he was just great on it. Then the military bought him a big MW and that was over, lol.

I gotta come hear your group play. I bet it sounds awesome back there. Like 20 years ago, I was in Austria and the large wind bands always had an F tuba in the section. Such a nice meaty and more-seriois sound. What's the 3rd tuba player use?

To Tony's comment (attempting to get him spinning like a top - as apparently that was his objective for everyone else )
The best instrument for a wind band (per his stated goal) is a managed-to-be-played-well-and-in-tune sousaphone - perhaps one with an upper #1 freely-moving slide.

bloke " 'Goal' and 'goad' are almost the same word."

C J wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:52 am

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:52 pm

Another F tuba advantage -- you'd have to try pretty hard to find one with LESS than 4 valves.

https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und ... 728431964/

Few of any in America though...

tclements wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:32 am Warning! VERY opinionated response ahead. If easily offended, please scroll ahead.

Why would you want to do this? In a band, the tubas replace the orchestral bass section. The tuba section is supposed to lay down a broad, solid bass. Play the largest BBb or CC you own. Brass band is another matter, but in a concert band (wind ensemble, etc), play a big contra.

My 2¢ worth, respectfully submitted.

Historically, the American wind band scored parts in octaves to double the bass line, which added strength and weight to the band. I don’t see why this is an issue using F tuba. I did that several times in my DMA.

The people who are saying bring what you want since it’s a volunteer group. I was in a British style brass band, a volunteer group, was often criticized and berated by the conductor, and other musicians (probably led by him) for not using BBb and Eb tubas. When we had all 4 keys of tubas was the best the section was in terms of tuning and blend.

Unless a conductor is told by a tubist, they shouldn’t even know certain keys of tubas exist. Many conductors hear with their eyes instead of their ears

tclements wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:32 am Warning! VERY opinionated response ahead. If easily offended, please scroll ahead.

Why would you want to do this? In a band, the tubas replace the orchestral bass section. The tuba section is supposed to lay down a broad, solid bass. Play the largest BBb or CC you own. Brass band is another matter, but in a concert band (wind ensemble, etc), play a big contra.

My 2¢ worth, respectfully submitted.

I'm never talking to you again.

Jk

Totally agree if there's only two (or one, lol) tuba in the band. For many many years, I was the only tuba in a largeish band... So never an option for bass tuba.

But for, I'd say 3 strong players, or 4 or more in the section, a good Eb or F tuba sound will deepen and enhance the sound of the band. But, it's a delicate balance. You still need a big strong bottom end, and a monster player down there when you can. The Eb/F needs to be great at intonation and blending, but not your strongest player. And I think you also need the right kind of euph section and a good strong bass trombone. Sounds tough to pull that off.

Or, as I like to say as the answer to most things in life... "It depends."

(But seriously Tony, you've got double-plus the experience that I have... so I trust your opinions and your ears!)

Last thought about tubas and community bands, quite simply:

Dance with the gal you brought.

russiantuba wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:46 am Many conductors hear with their eyes instead of their ears

A music director is accustomed to hearing my cimbasso play "kill" notes (only when appropriate) in pops concerts, and was worried when I brought it in to play the 3rd 'bone part in the Mozart Requiem. I suppose he was both hearing with his eyes and (to be more fair) his limited experience...but I reminded him that not every sound I make - in pops concerts (and very seldom, even then) - is that "sound effect" (which he LOVES when I do it...ie. huge smile - as I do it only when it belongs).

During the rehearsals/concert of the Mozart, I never received either a comment nor even an eye.
The cimbasso (between p and f - or even a non-exaggerated ff) is one of the most "blending" type of sounds there is.
Playing mostly unison lines with the 2nd bassoon (sitting immediately to my right) I believe their "reedy" sound took precedence (in everyone's ears) over my cimbasso sonority.
Further (defending the cimbasso), I have to that this part is way easier to play on an F cimbasso (with a bunch of valves, and not even having to hold the instrument up in the air) than a B-flat slide bass trombone. The fairly extensive (and this snapshot isn't anywhere near the longest) "runs" consume not only AIR but a trombone player's OXYGEN (arm muscles consuming it), whereby - this stuff is nicely in the middle "puff" range of the F cimbasso, and - as long as I continue to look ahead - the passages are so "etude/exercise"-like that it actually doesn't require much practice...and the edition that we played was an excellent PRINTED and VERY NEAT edition (unlike this - which I found on IMSLP).





bloke "I don't believe I would take that instrument to a community band rehearsal nor concert, though...and now: bending over backwards - as if a contortionist - to change the subject."

@bort2.0 is right about the 822- Those, the big Willsons, Comp. Eb’s, they are all contrabass substitutes in my eye, and they’re about as big as some of the 4/4 BBb and CC horns anyway.

They’ve got way more natural agility, less weight, and about 20% less low range depth. If you’re gonna do it, use a “big” F or Eb.

I actually think horns like these should be in the hands of more people. They’re just so much less work to play, and they fit in many groups easily.

Some are pitchy, my Willson included, but once you play the horn for a year or so you tend to adjust to it anyway.

I wish - for any who might be seeking such a tuba - that they/you/whomever find/stumble-across a tuba that (just about) plays everything with very little/unnoticeable/virtually-no pitch favoring required.

I own a couple of those...
It's nirvana.

When such an instrument is experienced, any/all of that "I prefer/pistons/rotors/dark/bright/top/front/open/resistant/silver/lacquer" jazz instantly flies out the window.

eupho wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:21 am I have gotten to that stage in life where the weight of a nice BBb or CC full-size tuba is no longer manageable. A Euphonium specialist, my upper range there is also is not what it used to be. A British style EEb would, of course, have a shorter bore(less air) but not any less weight than a BBb. Have others of my vintage opted for 4 front valve EEbs or even F Tubas to keep playing? Do they work for a community band setting?

Do you play in a section of other tuba players?
If yes, ask them, since they include you in the section, include them in your concerns you need that before investing in another horn
Does your band have more than one or two other euph players?
If yes, ask them, if you'd consider returning to the euph an option
Have you asked the conductor?
The advice about sticking with the biggest horn you can sounded like a conductor/music director/pro player's perspective.
If you include that in your discussions with your other band mates before you talk to your director AND when you talk with your director, you will be better-equipped to use the advice in the rest of this thread, ATMO

--30--

eupho wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:21 am I have gotten to that stage in life where the weight of a nice BBb or CC full-size tuba is no longer manageable. A Euphonium specialist, my upper range there is also is not what it used to be. A British style EEb would, of course, have a shorter bore(less air) but not any less weight than a BBb. Have others of my vintage opted for 4 front valve EEbs or even F Tubas to keep playing? Do they work for a community band setting?

To the point of your post:
You said using EE flat or F to keep playing.
In my opinion, bring the instrument that you can deal with physically. You are talking about community bands not a professional ensemble (although some community bands are excellent). Please keep enjoying making music.

best,
Mark

The air requirements (in lengths of tubas) seems to me to be mostly negligible.
However, the small-end bore of the mouthpipe (of any tuba, regardless of length/bore size/overall size) has a fairly noticeable effect on that.

Why not just buy a (thin-wall/lightweight) 4/4 four-rotor Cerveny 681 B-flat?
They are lightweight/full-size/contrabass/easily playable.

NOTICE:
I'm not trying to sell you something that I currently have for sale.

Eupho: my four valve Miraphone 183 Eb, with the receiver changed out for a standard modern shank, is light weight AND has a good low range if you are willing to use the false tone. I swear people can't tell it's an Eb; I have even been told by brass players that they assumed I was playing a BBb.

Before he died, a retired band teacher and principal double-bassist emeritus of the regional orchestra played tuba in my community band. I don't know where he found it, but he found a Conn small bore BBb that was easy to carry and had decent intonation.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:02 pm Before he died, a retired band teacher and principal double-bassist emeritus of the regional orchestra played tuba in my community band. I don't know where he found it, but he found a Conn small bore BBb that was easy to carry and had decent intonation.

Yikes. Well at least I know what NOT to do.

eupho wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:21 am I have gotten to that stage in life where the weight of a nice BBb or CC full-size tuba is no longer manageable. A Euphonium specialist, my upper range there is also is not what it used to be. A British style EEb would, of course, have a shorter bore(less air) but not any less weight than a BBb. Have others of my vintage opted for 4 front valve EEbs or even F Tubas to keep playing? Do they work for a community band setting?

I’m a brass band player but maybe there is some overlap to community wind band.

A guy who sits next to me from time to time is really a Cornet player in a much higher level band but he likes to double on Eb Bass. He now plays an old Imperial EEb (four valve, compensating) but for a long time played a small three valve non-comp Eb, he takes the upper part of any split and is the best player on the section. On the small Eb he still generated a massive sound and a well played upper part actually adds a lot of clarity to the bass section’s sound - be the person adding clarity.

During the covid lock-down sessions we could meet in small groups and I played a small three valve Eb, it covered everything perfectly and arguably better than a bigger tuba (Eb’s are nimble and BBb’s are less so).

The bottom-line is that it’s more about the player than the instrument, and it’s better to have a reasonable player there than an empty seat. Bring what works for you and then sort out any emerging issues with your section mates and conductor.

RIGHT NOW we´re in the process of preparing for the band´s main concert coming up on December 2nd.
It´s the band´s 160th anniversary, so the conductor chose to take us through different musical eras.

Those are the two reasons I´m bringing both a BBb and an F tuba on stage:
Bauern-Polka by R.Strauss (Sohn) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO99hzf5akk
"Regimentskinder" by Julius Fucik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY5-vVOobwQ
The latter march is a true gem and a pleasure to play.

I´ve chosen to use the Melton 46S on those, not the ADAMS.
It fits better with my section mate´s Melton 25. (Those two, played on traditional band music, are a dream team)

On all other literature of that day, It´ll be an all-BBb-tuba section.
Modern compositions for band / symphonic winds tends to be written for contrabass tubas only, which is a pity.
In traditional band literature, the high tuba voice closes the gap between tubas and tenors, soundwise, and it adds clarity.
The higher voices are set so this will actually work out.

In modern band literature, playing an octave above the bass voice will mess up the tenor voices, and composers don´t seem to want there to be that additional color.

yes to all...
Your last sentence is particularly true.

general comment:
It requires a particularly talented composer / transcriber / arranger to prevent wind bands from sounding way too mezzo-voiced and to achieve varieties of clean transparent types of resonances. Further, it requires particularly talented players to pull that off as well. Were the wind band an
amplifier, it says if someone turn the volume knob to 8 and turned the treble knob down to 3, and - as they were walking away - said "Sound good anyway".

blokeian boring pontificating:
The only instruments that shimmer somewhat are the flutes, and they are not the loudest. Over the last few decades, clarinet players have been encouraged to move to more and more mellow-sounding mouthpieces (and - come to think of it - this is true of most of the other wind instruments as well, and extends into instrument design, with other obvious examples being the use of huge euphoniums and huge mouthpieces compared to baritone horns with medium size mouthpieces in the past, as well as all the trombone players showing up with huge symphony orchestra-size trombones with almost euphonium-size mouthpieces) so any shimmer that they could offer is being muted. Review the instrumentation and look at how many of the instruments in the wind-band sound from the low to upper alto range, whereas music that most people prefer features very predominant treble with bass being the second most predominant. I have more observations and opinions on this, but they are equally boring.

Now bloke has inspired me to use the 188 with a Shallowberger and try for some shimmer!

LOL...

I don't believe that's where most of it needs to come from, in a large ensemble.