TubaForum.net

If you have the talent, the drive and the determination then you will succeed.

It took me 12 years, two tertiary qualifications and a lot of freelancing to finally get employed as a full time tuba player. I was offered a position in a military band in 2023 and have been fortunate to be employed full time in a symphony orchestra for the past 12 months.

Is it worth the ridiculous amount of hard work, stress, sacrifice and money? … possibly.

Orchestras are strange places to work and it’s not by any means an easy job.

Bloke's original post reminds me of a Mozart In The Jungle episode. Some rich folks hired a chamber group. The musicians were made to park in the back, use the rear entrance to the mansion, and forced to wait in the kitchen until performance time.

Job opportunities are also shrinking. Symphonies in smaller cities are firing l local musicians and hiring only musicians from nearby big city orchestras.

bort2.0 wrote:

JRaymo wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:18 pm The people who fly the large international sized airplanes are now making $500 per flight hour. Takes about $100000 to get a commercial pilots license. Two years and about $40000 will get you an aircraft maintenance technician license. The major airlines are paying them well over $100k and there is or was a big shortage industry wide. Definitely not a 9 to 5 job though.


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My dad was a mechanic for the USAF in the late 60s/early 70s. He loved that job, and I always wondered why he didn't either 1) stay "in" longer or 2) didn't get a similar civvy job when he came back. He said it was because of the long/irregular hours, any/all weather, and could be brutal work. Instead, he worked his whole career for the utility company... Outside... Any/all weather... Weird hours...

The pay wasn’t always there. My first job in aviation in the early 90s was for $7/hr. There’s an acronym that goes along with aviation. A.I.D.S. Aviation induced divorce syndrome. Affects a lot of people. I’ve avoided it but it will also kill music hobbies. My best tuba playing happened while I was out of the industry.


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Sometimes degrees are just ploys. When I moved to NYC for my Masters, I quickly found out that that's a fantastic way to build a freelance network: fellow students hear you can play (and behave!), and word gets around. When my professional European orchestra gig downsized, a DMA was a great way to get back into the freelance pool when I moved back to the US.

Besides, the performance DMA was after 40 years in professional music, so essentially pointless. And free to boot!

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Feb 17, 2024 11:38 pm

Go ahead and practice and improve with the same intensity, determination and vigor, but - instead of - as side occupations - smoking weed and going to keggers, consider learning.........

There goes all my fun.

The working wage pay for playing in symphony orchestras - and this includes the really big city orchestras - was sort of a thing from the mid-70s into the 80s and maybe a little bit into the 90s, if someone's classical music career hovered over those years, they might have done sort-of okay. Otherwise, before and after - no. New York Philharmonic musicians - prior to that era - did live radio background music, recorded jingles, etc., played in town bands, taught lessons - as they do today, and did all sorts of other freelance work to cobble together a living. Today, their six-figure pay doesn't buy much within committing distance of that job's location... not to mention how much of it is confiscated in taxation.

Realize that anyone who is required to wear certain types of clothes at work is blue collar.

JRaymo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:11 am The pay wasn’t always there. My first job in aviation in the early 90s was for $7/hr. There’s an acronym that goes along with aviation. A.I.D.S. Aviation induced divorce syndrome. Affects a lot of people. I’ve avoided it but it will also kill music hobbies. My best tuba playing happened while I was out of the industry.

For sure... It's really tough work for that low $ too.

I think my dad actually loved his job because:
Yes, the mechanical stuff
Yes, the airplane stuff (he worked on C-54s)
He was stationed in Spain for all 4 years
As a 20 year old living in Madrid... the 20-year old Madrileñas *
By some luck, he enlisted in 1968 and was sent to Spain instead of Vietnam**

*"Son, it's a miracle your mama isn't Spanish"
**He was given a choice when he enlisted -- be a helicopter mechanic or an airplane mechanic. He was surprised to have been asked, be loved airplanes since he was a kid, so gut first reaction was "airplanes." Unintentional, but was 100% getting sent to Vietnam if he said "helicopters"

I am really happy I got a music performance degree. The skills, experiences, networking, people I met along the way (my wife), and all the rest that I acquired were fantastic, and although I don't play for a living, I do get the occasional gig and I was able to leverage my skills into a career in a related field. I have a great life and a great family, and we do pretty well all things considered. Can't change the past, so no use what-iffing. I wouldn't trade it for an engineering degree or anything STEM related or business or trades-related, because that's just not me or what I ever wanted to do. I have a low-stress job with a great work-life balance and I have fun by playing my instrument at a high level, teaching private students and playing a few dozen paid gigs a year. I did the hustle of playing for a living for a couple years out of college and was fairly miserably stressed doing that. People figure stuff out.

All that said, for my degree, I got a full ride plus stipend. I don't think it's worth going into debt over.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:43 am Realize that anyone who is required to wear certain types of clothes at work is blue collar.

Keeping the trombone, bass, and trumpet players sober was challenging during my 8 yrs in the military bands. When they did get drunk, yes in a duty status, pants disappeared. A few summers of Interlochen, and a stint at the NAVSOM (paid practice time) is all you need. 8 yrs maxed out my benefits and 2 degrees later I'm fine. Looking back, I'd only wish that online general ed courses were a thing back then.

JRaymo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:11 am
The pay wasn’t always there. My first job in aviation in the early 90s was for $7/hr. There’s an acronym that goes along with aviation. A.I.D.S. Aviation induced divorce syndrome. Affects a lot of people. I’ve avoided it but it will also kill music hobbies. My best tuba playing happened while I was out of the industry.


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Yeah started late 90s as an A&P for a flight school at a whopping $10/hr. Got up to an "assistant manager at Burger King" wage and was laid off after 9/11. Went back to school for engineering and never looked back.

My majors changed in decreasing order of practicality:

First- Electrical Engineering
Second- Music Education
Third- Euphonium Performance (the planet's most unmarketable degree, especially for me as I could not join the military)

I started in EE thinking I could make a good living and play music on the side. Going through a potentially life-ending illness at age 18, my priorities changed. Uncertain of how much time I had left and not having any interest in engineering, I wanted fulfillment in my remaining days. I got my Bachelor's degree in Music Education and Master's degree in Euphonium Performance. I was extremely fortunate to have studied with Chicago Symphony Orchestra brass players in the '80s and will always remember and appreciate the opportunity.

As the family breadwinner on a band director's salary in a high-cost area, I understand financial limitations. However, if you are frugal and manage money well, you will do just fine. My sons have had fantastic opportunities (as I have written about elsewhere on this forum) and we have not lived a life of deprivation. Thanks to my frugal and business-savvy wife, we have done better than I ever expected. It starts with taking responsibility for your situation and working with it. I have no regrets about my choice of majors.

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."
Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whew. Tough topic for me to think about. I got a degree in math and spent my working career as a programmer because back then specific programming skills were not required. I also played band, orchestra, quintets - whatever I could.

Programming isn’t what it used to be. I could not do now what I did then. I could barely stay current enough as a programmer to be functional my last few years. I had seen sad, old programmers as a young person and pretty much became one later.

I have 6 kids - 3 engineers, 1 business major, 1 doctorate in physics who works at CERN. They all played in high school band, most played in college, and 2 of those still play a lot outside of work.

The sixth child has about finished up her doctorate in horn performance. She really wants to be in a full-time orchestra but that hasn’t happened yet. She has come close. She has won some per-service jobs that she is currently working while she continues to audition. So far she (and we) have been able to get through without debt.

I tried to tell her that her career choice was much tougher than her siblings. A female engineer, especially a capable one, is worth gold. But she has wanted to play horn professionally all her life. I figure that she should have that chance.

She has no other degree but does have other talents and skills. I’m sure that she will survive. I’m keeping my fingers crossed … I hope that she can get a job with a good group within the next year or two.

— Joe

Your kids have done great, obviously with good guidance from their parents. Of course, nothing is guaranteed: the twists and turns of life are unpredictable. I think that, with a focus on eternity and how to live right, the material needs will be met.

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life? And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
Matthew 6:25-34

"And I saw that all toil and all achievement spring from one person’s envy of another. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind."
Ecclesiastes 4:4

For your discussion:

https://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/w ... music.html

To add to this downer thread:

Assume you actually get a job in a major orchestra. Also assume you get that job at age 30. You will be working in the same job for another 35 years; and except for a cost of living increase (that probably doesn't keep up with the cost of living), you will never get a salary increase.

So, you say at least your income will be predictable. No, donations are down and management wants to decrease your pay. You say okay and your pay goes down. Or, you go on strike and the strike may last long enough that you will never make up for the loss of income.

Mark wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 1:18 pm …
So, you say at least your income will be predictable. No, donations are down and management wants to decrease you pay. You say okay and your pay goes down. Or, you go on strike and the strike may last long enough that you will never make up for the loss of income.

Or you strike and the board decides to disband the whole orchestra, as recently happened in San Antonio.

(I’m sure there’s some nuance to it, but that’s pretty much the end result.)

I predict that all American orchestras (before bloke croaks) will be per-service (with no benefits nor retirement).

4 rehearsals and 2 concerts - c. $1500 (top-tier).

c. 100 services

You do the math.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:15 pm I predict that all American orchestras (before bloke croaks) will be per-service (with no benefits nor retirement).

4 rehearsals and 2 concerts - c. $1500 (top-tier).

c. 100 services

You do the math.

By when? Time frame is relevant, here.

I personally know some tubists, in prominent full-time orchestra and opera positions, who also have other businesses- welding, part owner of a coffee shop, instrument repair and sales. In my early years as a school band director, I delivered pizzas part-time. I was also a small-time landlord for 20 years. There's certainly nothing wrong with doing other things to reach financial goals. And it makes you take a healthy break from the music world.

This is not to say that aspiring performers should automatically have a fallback career. If they have a fallback, they will fall back. Result: almost definitely not performing. After fully going for it and it doesn't work out, their lives are not over; at least they gave it a shot without regrets of not having tried.