TubaForum.net

KerryAbear wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:16 pm Update:

I have finally purchased an E♭ tuba.
http://alturl.com/vv8ea

I really wanted a 4 valve Yamaha or Besson. I’ll just have to cope with three valves and upgrade in the future when I have the funds.
I thought this was a good deal though and it comes with a hard case.

Congratulations on your purchase. Yes, a four valve comp Besson or Yamaha would have been ‘better’, but not in all ways.

I have the later Besson Regent II Eb Tuba and wouldn’t part with it lightly, indeed as I age it might become my old man Tuba. Those little Eb’s are affordable, light, compact, surprisingly loud, relatively easy on air and melodic - there’s a lot to like about them. Their range does only go down to Concert A (I think that that translation from transposed treble clef is correct) but for quite a lot of stuff that’ll do. Occasionally you’ll need to put something up an octave and that’s normally no issue, and some clever folk manage to get some lower notes via privilege tones.

I’m not sure how it would be done - though something does come to mind - but adding a fourth valve - probably rotary - is not unheard of.

The Yamaha YEB-321’s are popular, but they’re likely several multiples more that your Besson Stratford cost. In an earlier post I attached a video of a guy playing a YEB-321.

Those really small B&H/Besson E-flat tubas have always intrigued me.

I have a very small (Conn, 1920s) 4-valve top-action F project (their old 2J E-flat - which I've shortened to F, yet not completed the project...and Conn built these decades before the model number, 2J, was recycled to an Olds-made-for-Conn C tuba).

It's only 5/8" bore and the bell is a skinny 14" bell.

I always thought it might be great for in-the-cracks works (Mendelssohn/Berlioz/a few brass quintets which don't specifically designate bass trombone/et al). I laid it aside (I found a wonderful little Jakob Winter case for it, btw) and never finished it. In the meantime, I sold my euphonium and purchased a VERY large compensating euphonium which I'm able to play in tune...so I've come even closer to filling in the instrument-size/bore gap between F tuba and euphonium. Sorry Unca Buruh, no French tubers for me.

If curious, go to the Conn loyalist pages and look at a manufacturer's drawing of the old tiny E-flat 2J. Again...Mine is a rare 4-valve, and Mr. Secrist HAS rebuilt these valves. (4th circuit is a typical Conn one - with a loop tracing the upper bow.)

...so I might eventually own TWO E-flat tubas:
- one which attempts to fool people that its a BB-flat recording bass
- one which attempts to fool people that it's a euphonium

OK...saving some trouble...Here's the picture of the ancient tiny 2J E-flat...and possibly (??) my 4-valve version was called a 3J...

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:46 pm
…Their range does only go down to Concert A (I think that that translation from transposed treble clef is correct) but for quite a lot of stuff that’ll do. Occasionally you’ll need to put something up an octave and that’s normally no issue, and some clever folk manage to get some lower notes via privilege tones.

I’m not sure how it would be done - though something does come to mind - but adding a fourth valve - probably rotary - is not unheard of. …

That is correct, three valves bring it down to AA. Once I become more proficient I’ll see about either buying a new E♭ or adding a 4th valve. A rotar would probably fit this instrument easier than a piston. Maybe I can add one of those fancy trombone Thayer valves, lol.

I really want the extended range of a forth valve. I’d like to play E♭ in a brass quintet and I have some solos that the added nimbleness of a bass tuba will come in handy. I couldn’t believe how easy some hard quintet parts became when I played them on my euphonium with the Bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece. But playing “the tenor tuba” isn’t feasible at all. I also can’t wait to play Tuba Christmas on the E♭ this Year.

I happen to have a York E♭ tuba mouthpiece. If that one doesn’t work out several people have given good recommendations for mouthpiece for E♭ tuba in the forum.

Um. I'd be intensely curious as to whether you have a false tone on the Ab below that AA. Many do, even rotaries, and you can learn to use it and go all the way down to the pedal. Both of my rotary Ebs have a false tone there that I find usable. It will feel unstable but you can learn to use it.

It’s maybe a little off of topic - my apologies - but I’m wondering what rotary valves might be available for such a (added) four valve conversion? I look on-line but there’s no data and second hand rotary valves seem to be never available. Has anyone got either any supply sources or size data?

Theory and practise are two different things. There’s precious little to no spare space to site an extra valve, these little instruments were designed well and they were designed without adaptation in mind. My Regent II has its tuning slide after the valve block; forgetting the loop route and length for a moment the short non-tapered stretch directly after the valve block might possibly just about allow a rotary valve to be fitted. Wishful thinking, what’s that?

The Stratford, and the Regents too, had a sister model pitched in BBb. Buying one of those sister models would likely be cheaper than adding a fourth valve to an Eb, I must try to remember that but … To add more doubt adding the valve would likely result in an instrument that doesn’t sound quite as good (in normal playing) as it did before the modification, and the costs of the modification are unlikely to be recovered, I must try to remember those too but …

bloke's obnoxious E-flat tuba opinions:

Most E-flat tubas made today seem to serve as "fake" contrabass tubas.
@Mary Ann We all know what you have, which is an exception.
@some others Your old-school 15"-bell Besson E-flat tubas are "just the thing".

A whole bunch of them feature 18 or 19 inch bells, which tend to generate a diffuse sound.

It seems to me that the E-flat tubas in a brass band substitute for the missing bassoons, harmony clarinets, and baritone saxophones in what is referred to by many as a "wind" or "concert" band...but - as so many of the E-flat tubas now feature really large bells, it seems to me that their sound can easily tend to sound too "thick/covered/round" in a traditional British-style brass band.

I completely embrace the use of a large-belled E-flat tuba as a "fake" contrabass tuba thing, see it as EXTREMELY useful (for music which requires playing constantly), and my only E-flat tuba is (not just 19", but) one with a detachable 22-inch recording bell (though I've created auxiliary 17" and 19" upright bells for it, when the band - 99% of the time - a jazz combo - tells me that (at a particular venue) the sound is going "out there" too much and they need more of it to bounce off the ceiling near the bandstand).

Compared to my reading skills with the other three common lengths of tubas, my E-flat (concert pitch bass clef) reading skills aren't worth a $h!t (not absolutely terrible, because I can do the "B-flat trumpet treble clef" thing), but (again) comparatively...but I can read changes...though I almost never am asked (at those sorts of jobs) to play tunes that I don't know, so - when playing E-flat tuba - I rarely read anything.
One of the LAST times that I remember playing the E-flat tuba and reading printed notes was an (extremely rare, for me) brass choir concert, whereby the encore was Stars and Stripes forever. I refuse to play the piccolo obbligato in a concert band, because [1] it's not funny to the patrons, as they don't get the joke [2] even when played well, it sounds dumb and [3] it's particularly rude to the flautists, as the unfunny joke takes away one of their really big moments in concert band literature...but (in a brass choir) there were no piccolos, and it was written into my part. Played on E-flat tuba in A-flat major, that passage mostly involves no valves, or mashing either the 1st or 2nd valve...so playing E-flat tuba (on that piece) was absolutely a no-brainer.

the single most stupid thing about E-flat tuba: C-sharp is played by mashing the first button.

It's in an A⁷ chord...and the fellows that I play tunes with actually call up a few tunes that features that chord in the changes. (It goes to D, B-flat or even A-flat, ya know...)

It's funny because the other night I was sight reading something in D major with the new TE quartet, and I just plain stalled on where the heck C# was!!

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 5:12 pm It's funny because the other night I was sight reading something in D major with the new TE quartet, and I just plain stalled on where the heck C# was!!

zaklee

There was ever a flat-keys tuba, it's got to be an E-flat.

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:28 am A whole bunch of them feature 18 or 19 inch bells, which tend to generate a diffuse sound.

It seems to me that the E-flat tubas in a brass band substitute for the missing bassoons, harmony clarinets, and baritone saxophones in what is referred to by many as a "wind" or "concert" band...but - as so many of the E-flat tubas now feature really large bells, it seems to me that their sound can easily tend to sound too "thick/covered/round" in a traditional British-style brass band.

Ah ha. I'm doing my part, then, playing Eb brass band parts with a 15.5" bell, not sounding much like a contrabass.

jtm wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:08 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:28 am A whole bunch of them feature 18 or 19 inch bells, which tend to generate a diffuse sound.

It seems to me that the E-flat tubas in a brass band substitute for the missing bassoons, harmony clarinets, and baritone saxophones in what is referred to by many as a "wind" or "concert" band...but - as so many of the E-flat tubas now feature really large bells, it seems to me that their sound can easily tend to sound too "thick/covered/round" in a traditional British-style brass band.

Ah ha. I'm doing my part, then, playing Eb brass band parts with a 15.5" bell, not sounding much like a contrabass.

https://austinbrassband.com/

I’m guessing that you’re the guy on the end of a row of six basses and the only one with a traditional British style instrument.

A few weeks back I had the chance to briefly play an old small bell Imperial Eb Bass and was immediately impressed by its singing tone and comparative ease of playing. It probably won’t play quite as loud as my larger bell Sovereign but it could still be plenty load enough - I’d like one, possibly prefer even, large bells seem oversized to me. Are individual Brass Band instruments louder than individual Wind Band instruments? My instinct is that lip reed instruments (eg. Trumpet) are louder than mechanical reed instruments (eg. Saxophone).

Are four valve big bell Eb’s fake BBb’s? Are BBb’s playing a fourth(?) up fake Eb’s; in pitch unison playing between the two isn’t uncommon. I find overlap between the the Eb’s and BBb’s and some instruments just handle extended range better than others. A four valve Eb has a lower low pitch range than a three valve BBb, no limitation there so where are the limitations? Last night I was deliberately trying to play my Eb as if it were a BBb; I was reading treble clef music and transposing it all down a fourth (?) such that it sounded the same as it would if played by a BBb. The experiment went reasonably well - the tone was solid if not absolutely the same - and I plan to work on the ability to play like a BBb.

Why would someone want to play a four valve Eb like it’s a BBb? For me there are loads of reasons but amongst the most important is the additional support that I can give to my fellow Bass players and the Band in general. If a BBb player is missing then an Eb player might read their music (transposed treble clef pitched in Bb) to cover a part. If one of my BBb buddies is struggling with a part that I can manage slightly better then we can practise and play it in unison … and one of the better ways to learn is to teach or assist others. If someone has duet or other music in Bb transposed treble clef then I could/can play it, filling a part is important. Of course the issues are slightly different for Bass Clef readers but the importance of filling a part remains and in my limited experience a fake BBb can make a decent enough job of it.

I applaud you for learning to transpose BBb treble clef to play on an Eb, but --- and people here are tired of hearing me say this -- if you learned to just read it by concert pitch, as a different clef, you wouldn't have to transpose. It is very freeing to read a variety of clefs in concert pitch. One can end up playing viola parts on a Cor Anglais, or trumpet parts on a violin.

I know you're referring to 2nd Tenor, but me: I'm just an old trumpet player, so I haven't "learned" anything - in regards to reading sheet music and playing an E-flat tuba.

WERE IT THAT I ever decided to become a sheet-music-reading E-flat player (rather than just "someone who picks up an E-flat tuba and plays old songs"), I'd learn to look at bass clef pitches, SEE them as bass clef pitches, and mash the buttons (as bass clef pitches) when playing E-flat tubas.

I'm fairly old (were I a smoker and drinker - or some other sorts of substances abuser, I'd probably be dead), so I doubt that day will come whereby I use E-flat tubas to play sheet music, but who knows...??

Being an old trumpet (now cornet) player myself, and having had the opportunity to sit in with a real British Brass Band (community non-contesting), I simply mentally pretend it is treble clef and mentally adjust key and accidentals accordingly.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:48 am

jtm wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:08 pm ...
Ah ha. I'm doing my part, then, playing Eb brass band parts with a 15.5" bell, not sounding much like a contrabass.

https://austinbrassband.com/

I’m guessing that you’re the guy on the end of a row of six basses and the only one with a traditional British style instrument.

A few weeks back I had the chance to briefly play an old small bell Imperial Eb Bass and was immediately impressed by its singing tone and comparative ease of playing. It probably won’t play quite as loud as my larger bell Sovereign but it could still be plenty load enough - I’d like one, possibly prefer even, large bells seem oversized to me. Are individual Brass Band instruments louder than individual Wind Band instruments? My instinct is that lip reed instruments (eg. Trumpet) are louder than mechanical reed instruments (eg. Saxophone).

Close.... The guy on the end is playing a Yamaha Eb (I forget which one), which is indeed the right shape. I'm next to him with this old Miraphone F that bort2.0 sold last year. Now I'm playing a different Miraphone F of similar size and very slightly newer. Somehow I've never worried about being loud enough.

jtm wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:20 pm

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:48 am

jtm wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:08 pm ...
Ah ha. I'm doing my part, then, playing Eb brass band parts with a 15.5" bell, not sounding much like a contrabass.

https://austinbrassband.com/

I’m guessing that you’re the guy on the end of a row of six basses and the only one with a traditional British style instrument.

A few weeks back I had the chance to briefly play an old small bell Imperial Eb Bass and was immediately impressed by its singing tone and comparative ease of playing. It probably won’t play quite as loud as my larger bell Sovereign but it could still be plenty load enough - I’d like one, possibly prefer even, large bells seem oversized to me. Are individual Brass Band instruments louder than individual Wind Band instruments? My instinct is that lip reed instruments (eg. Trumpet) are louder than mechanical reed instruments (eg. Saxophone).

Close.... The guy on the end is playing a Yamaha Eb (I forget which one), which is indeed the right shape. I'm next to him with this old Miraphone F that bort2.0 sold last year. Now I'm playing a different Miraphone F of similar size and very slightly newer. Somehow I've never worried about being loud enough.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion.

The volume comment was really intended in connection with something that Bloke had said earlier. Interestingly there’s a recent thread on excessive sound - or rather forced dynamics - on a now near dead forum that I’m a member of; Brass Bands have become / are sometimes too loud.

I’m puzzled by the line-up of Tubas, are your parts written in Bass Clef?

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:31 am I applaud you for learning to transpose BBb treble clef to play on an Eb, but --- and people here are tired of hearing me say this -- if you learned to just read it by concert pitch, as a different clef, you wouldn't have to transpose. It is very freeing to read a variety of clefs in concert pitch. One can end up playing viola parts on a Cor Anglais, or trumpet parts on a violin.

Sorry MA but I’m confused at what you’re saying here, and remember I’m an amateur musician and not a music graduate like many others here. Please would you explain a little further or point me towards some other of your posts that do, etc. My suspicion is that what you’re suggesting is above my potential skill level and is so by quite a wide mark - but I’m complemented that you think me possible if it, thank you.

The Brass Band parts for Tubas come in transposed treble clef for Eb Tubas and (a second set) transposed Treble Clef for Bb Tubas; the Brass Band Tubas here in the UK never get Tuba parts written in Bass Clef (concert pitch). I believe that Tubas in Wind Bands typically get their part written in Bass Clef. That’s just my experience but maybe I’m missing something.

That’s an interesting thought about playing music written for other instruments. I’m always on the look out for unaccompanied music to play.

I'm not really sure what the concert pitch thing was about either. Trumpet parts are typically transposed up 2 steps from concert pitch. Viola music is concert pitch, but in a clef you'd otherwise rarely encounter, so same difference. The thing we typically have to do, when presented with music that is written in an unfamiliar relationship to the instrument, is sit down and learn to play it.

Bass clef concert pitch is a good thing for situations where ensembles may have one of several different types of bass instruments - might be a tuba, might be a trombone, etc. That kind of of doubling is a good reason to learn concert pitch with bari sax, bass clarinet etc., but the brass world already does it. (And strings, as long as the octave doesn't present a problem.) People who play only in formal ensemble situations like British brass band, I guess wouldn't benefit so much.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:40 pm I’m puzzled by the line-up of Tubas, are your parts written in Bass Clef?

All the parts are in treble clef (except bass trombone). The fellow with the Eb tuba has the right combination. He's a bass trombone player first, though, so he may think in concert pitches and transpose from the Eb part; I've never asked.

Mike Lynch and I are both playing Fs, and we transpose and think in concert pitches. Fortunately, the Eb treble clef notes are in the same places as concert bass clef, so if we remember to add three flats to the key signature (and use special care with some of the accidentals) it reads like bass clef. Last year (before the picture), I was playing the Eb part on a smallish C tuba, using the same approach.

The three guys on Bb bass are playing on C tubas and transposing treble clef. I haven't asked if they have tricks. If I moved to Bb, I'd probably use a Bb tuba (since I'm lucky enough to have one, even though it's rotary) and read with trumpet fingerings, as intended.

The rest of the band is using the proper traditional instruments: Eb and Bb horns separate from euphoniums, Bb and Eb cornets, and trombones.