Musings On Learning E♭ Tuba

[KerryAbear]

I've decided I want learn E♭ tuba after playing Symphonie Fantastique on tenor tuba (i.e. I used a Bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece on my euphonium), and it was lots of fun. I also play in a brass quintet that a bass tuba would be well suited for, and I want to teach my young son to play trombone on a pBone mini E♭ alto trombone.

My first though was to purchase a cheap $300-$500 3 valve E♭ to learn before investing money in an instrument that I could use for brass quintet. Then I found a free app called BrassUP that teaches brass fingerings. BrassUp isn't perfect, but it is wonderful and it has E♭ fingerings (as well as BB♭, maybe CC, but not F). In a day I have all my fingerings memorized and am working on becoming proficient in all 12 keys, so I'm just going to buy a suitable 4 valve E♭ tuba when I find the right deal for me.

I'm leaning towards a Yamaha YEB-321S. I'd love a YEB-381S or YEB-632, but I don't really need a professional horn at my skill level or budget. I'd love a 5th valve, but it really isn't a necessity for me, but a hard case and a 4th valve are necessities for me. The other want for me is valves, I want a tactile difference between my E♭ horn and my BB♭ horn that has rotors (but the weight difference alone will probably be enough). For a fleeting second I was worried that the YEB-321S is considered a 3/4 tuba, but after I thought about it I don't thing that it matters since I'll be primarily playing it in brass quintet. I just posted a link on "Off-Site deals and Ads" for a modified 4 valve York E♭ but I believe I am going to stay away from an instrument that is over a hundred years old, I worry about the intonation and valve compression. Which other E♭ tubas should I be considering?

I haven't done much research on mouthpieces yet. My main mouthpiece is the Arnold Jacobs Heritage and I also use a Conn Helleberg. My Bobo tennor tuba mouthpiece might fit that small shank York. Perantucci alone has so many mouthpiece options for E♭ I don't know how to go about choosing.

Please leave me any thoughts or advice that you might have.

[2nd tenor]

I’m an Eb Bass player in a British Brass Band. During the Covid restrictions I also played in small groups instead of the full Brass Band.

It’s just my experience but the vast bulk of what I have and am asked to play in Band and Quintet could be covered by a three valve Eb Tuba. A fourth valve is handy but adds a lot to the cost. I’ve not played the YEB-321, it’s a non-compensating instrument but some folk like them and it could serve you well. If buying new then the Packer four compensating valve model is the way to go - liked here, great value and capability - but otherwise I value the simplicity of non-compensating instruments.

Mouthpiece wise I think a Wick 3 is about right.

[KerryAbear]

I’m definitely buying a used horn.

[2nd tenor]

I’m definitely buying a used horn.

In that case I suggest that you don’t get too hung up on manufactures, models and age and go with what you can find, provided that it meets your needs.

On size I’d say that a full size Tuba can overpower a small group, sometimes less is more/ better. The smaller ones are typically less greedy on air too and sometimes that’s helpful.

A three valve Eb has much the same low range as your (Bb/F) Bass Trombone so there’s some duplication there. On the other hand if, after checking your particular music, you can get away with a three valve Eb then why not consider doing so? The Eb Bass has a lovely sonorous voice, three valve ones tend to be affordable and if you need it then you already have a BBb for lower range pieces.

Good luck

[bort2.0]

I bought a Martin Medium Eb on a whim last year, because I had just sold a Besson 983 Eb and my Rudy 5/4 BBb wasn't quite ready yet. I had planned on sticking it in the garage and forgetting about it.

Fast forward ... the Martin Eb is all I have.

Limited by 3 valves. Limited by Eb. But playing it like it's York #3.

I've heard that a WAY cut down King 2341 valve set could work out for this horn... But what do I know. The bell and bottom bow are gorgeous and undamaged, aside from 99+ years of dings and scratches. Otherwise, I'd say it's in really great condition for it's age. Worst thing is the tiny bore and 3 valves... And if I could change that to 4 front valves and bigger bore, maybe I'd be happier. But for now, I'll keep pretending like it's 100 years ago and tuba players just plain used smaller stuff. It's a nice playing and sounding tuba, and has been a sleeper keeper in my revolving door of tubas.

I use a Denis Wick 1 on it. Whatever the smallest shank variant is, that's what I use.

[donn]

4 valves minimum for me. The thing is, bass tuba isn't really a thing, hasn't been for a long time. British Brass Band is the exception.

Size is probably overrated, though. The YEB321 is plenty big. And it has a real good reputation. It's sort of hard to predict what you're going to be able to get out of a tuba, from looking at it.

The best mouthpiece ever, at least for Eb, is the Conn 2. I guess you can't buy that new any more. The Arnold will probably do, if it sits right in the receiver, never played one.

[Dopey]

I changed to Eb as an adult after not playing for a decade+. I grew up playing BBb - Cerveny 681 specifically.

One mistake I made was buying a 3+1 combination Eb. I hated it. I never found the +1 to be natural or enjoyed it. I ultimately sold it and bought a 4+1 front facing piston.

I can't give advice on number of valves, but can offer advice to not under estimate the ergonomics you are accustomed to. I did not 'come from' euph nor ever playing a 3+1 upright configuration. It was a mistake to buy that configuration on an Eb tuba.

On learning fingerings -- I made this years ago when I had ordered my Eb tuba. https://slackspace.io/tuba/index.html It is not fancy.

You use the arrow keys (left=1, Middle=2, Right=3).
You press the combination, and on release it'll tell you if it is correct/wrong.
Space for the next.
Up arrow = 'Open'

I made it since I could not find any such trainer on line back then (2017ish?). I found it quite effective, and a quick check it seems to still work :)

I play in brass bands here - between 25-40 people. Usually 2 Ebs 2 BBbs. I agree with others a 3 valve would cover everything we play -- Pieces tend to be more technical within the staff than extremes below the staff. That said, I absolutely love my 4+1 non compensating Eb. Found 523, etc very natural and pleasing.


(I also was shocked how much the intonation/partials to my ear was a challenge. Atleast I think is the thing. I felt I had intonation issues often as the many hours on BBb I developed behaviours that on Eb were not correct. Nevermind trying to buzz an F open, instead of 1+3 and getting something beween an Eb and F coming out of the horn, etc. As a 'happy to be here player' in local bands, it amazed me how stark a difference it was to really get comfortable centering partials.. that said; I do not have a great ear. So perhaps this is more on me)

[acemorgan]

A few years ago, I sold my BBb tuba and bought a euphonium. Then, a couple years later, bought a very old Eb tuba, while still playing the euph.

Bouncing back and forth between fingerings was messing with my elderly brain. One of my online mentors, Dave Werden, said that treble clef is actually a logical fit for euphonium, because there is very little in the standard repertoire that doesn't lay nicely within the staff. Also, if you are an Eb tuba doubler, which he is, going back and forth is much easier. I started playing euph in treble and have not looked back. FWIW.

I also use a Wick 5 on the Eb. My tuba is small shank (obviously, since it is over a century old) and the Wick 5 was perfect for me.

I play in a non-British concert band, where there are 3 contrabasses and me. I cover the upper divisi parts, and where there is a single really low part, I transpose. Even though I have a 3 valve tuba, I can play chromatically down to Eb1, because I have really good false tones. But I don't need to, since my role is bass tuba. Again, FWIW, because that has been my experience.

[cjk]

IMHO, with Eb tubas, 3+1 Eb is where it's at. There are others that are fine, but give 3+1 a shot.

If you can deal with a 3+1 euphonium, you can certainly deal with a 3+1 Eb tuba.

[Wally]

Love my 321! Beautiful singing mid and upper register, and quite a ballsy low register, which the fourth valve definitely helps with. Bought it used this past spring for $2,200, and it is in near perfect shape. I have seen others for sale in this price range as well. I am in my 60's and have played BBb all my life, but recently acquired a CC and the EEb. Had to work at it, but knowing trumpet fingerings helped. Intonation on the 321 is not perfect, but pretty good. The tuning slide is actually loose enough that I may consider having a kicker installed. Over all, a good experience! Good luck!

[bloke]

IMHO, with Eb tubas, 3+1 Eb is where it's at. There are others that are fine, but give 3+1 a shot.

If you can deal with a 3+1 euphonium, you can certainly deal with a 3+1 Eb tuba.

THIS ↑

The top-action (and bell-front, for that matter) haters might (??) benefit from considering "getting over it", learning how to comfortably hold-and-play a top-action (different posture completely from front-action), opening themselves up to more options (not necessarily buying/owning top-action, but allowing that as an OPTION), and also realizing that - (perhaps with at least one of their instruments) a "recording bell" (whether "only" or "one of two bells") can offer some pronounced acoustical benefits at certain types of venues. Further/finally, neither top-action nor "recording bell" are "amateur", but are viable options for either amateurs, professionals, or people who both play for free and for remuneration.

clarification:
There are crappy/wonderful front-action tubas and crappy/wonderful top-action tubas.
More crappy front-action tubas are sold (to individuals) than crappy top-action tubas, due
to the incredible individual-consumer bias towards front-action tubas.
examples of expensive/crappy front-action tubas (too many to list, and NO WAY
am I jumping into that politically-charged rabbit hole.)

3+1 compensating E-flat tubas in particular:
I just have not encountered any front-action ones (in any price range) which play as well (nor as well in tune) as the best of the 3+1 comp's. "cjk" - in particular - owns an early Yamaha (YEB-631) which is - hands-down - superior to those Yamaha is currently producing...but there are other amazing 3+1 comp-E-flat tubas as well.
going off on a wild tangent:
It's very difficult to locate, these days, a SMALL BELL (15") 3+1 compensating E-flat tuba (as almost all made today feature 19" bells - with a few offering 17" bells), but the Yamaha YEB-321 bell (which repair shops and dealers can purchase from Yamaha) is virtually identical to the vintage Besson/B&H 15" bell, and can be purchased and installed (ie. "swapped out", if a smaller bell is desired) on several makes of the standard-sized 3+1 E-flat compensating tubas.

[Mary Ann]

All I have to say is that I have run into "quite old" Eb tubas that simply cannot be played in tune, similar to "quite old" Eb alto (tenor) horns that simply cannot be played in tune. Other than determining that before you buy, have fun.

[2nd tenor]

IMHO, with Eb tubas, 3+1 Eb is where it's at. There are others that are fine, but give 3+1 a shot.

If you can deal with a 3+1 euphonium, you can certainly deal with a 3+1 Eb tuba.

On balance, and if both weight and budget are no objective, I’m inclined to agree with you. For me though I’d say that either choice (3 or 4 valve in whatever configuration suits) can be a good choice - I have both a 3 and a 3+1. As ever what suits best is down to individual needs and choices.

Moving on. I’m normally a Transposed Tenor Clef player but I do dabble in Bass Clef too. Looking at the three bass clef books of piano accompanied Tuba music that I have and the Bel Canto studies all of them, unless I’m mistaken, can be played by a three valve Eb Bass. A BBb might have low notes in hand (in those books), but to no useful advantage. Similarly a four valve Eb should give you the low range of a three valve BBb and typically it will play some particular pitches slightly more in tune than its three valve brother; for a lot of Bass Tuba stuff those gains have no more than marginal practical value - well that’s what I’ve found in my own amateur playing.

Mouthpieces have been mentioned earlier. Wick 1 has a very large cup and a small shank, a Wick 1L is the same cup mouthpiece with a (now) standard large shank. I tend to use a Wick 3 or 3L in my two Eb Tubas. I have a 2L too and use that when my chops are in good shape, the 3L is fine but I think that the 2L speaks better through the fourth valve and compensating pipe work. The smaller three valve Eb works nicely for me with a Wick 3 but a 5 has been perfectly fine for me too, just my experience.

A few years ago, I sold my BBb tuba and bought a euphonium. Then, a couple years later, bought a very old Eb tuba, while still playing the euph.

Bouncing back and forth between fingerings was messing with my elderly brain. One of my online mentors, Dave Werden, said that treble clef is actually a logical fit for euphonium, because there is very little in the standard repertoire that doesn't lay nicely within the staff. Also, if you are an Eb tuba doubler, which he is, going back and forth is much easier. I started playing euph in treble and have not looked back. FWIW.

I can relate to that in that playing Bass Clef on the Trombone was a confusion to me and the music really didn’t fit well within the stave, Transposed Tenor Clef is a way better fit or use of space. For Eb Bass it’s (three valve) range sits really nicely in the Bass Clef Stave …. and all I need to do (as a Transposed Tenor Clef reader) is mentally change the key signature.

[donn]

I like what's left of my Wick 5. Fingernail polish will help as the silver comes off.

[KerryAbear]

I played a 3+1 Besson BB♭ in junior high and had an old beat up one as a practice horn in high school. It never gave me in problems. But I’m leaning towards a Yamaha and the YEB-632 is out of my budget range. But I’ll keep searching and weighting until the right deal comes up.

[bloke]

I played a 3+1 Besson BB♭ in junior high and had an old beat up one as a practice horn in high school. It never gave me in problems. But I’m leaning towards a Yamaha and the YEB-632 is out of my budget range. But I’ll keep searching and weighting funtil the right deal comes up.

again…
Having played the 631, I find the 632 to be epically disappointing… and yeah: expensive

Talk to “doc” (Bill Holt) about what he purchased.
Also: if you happen to be short-waisted, the same company makes it considerably less expensive model than the one he purchased with one of those straight-around-the-bell mouthpipes.

Back to Yamaha:
If you do encounter an available 631, check it carefully for red rot.

starter E-flat:
A guy in Kentucky has a silver three valve top action Besson - which is one of those tiny beginner ones. It has a big ol’ dent in the bottom but really good valves, and it’s only 500 bucks.

[JRaymo]

I bought a Willson 3400 as a bass tuba back in 2000. I played CC as my main instrument. I liked the idea of a vintage sousaphone or helicon and they are easy to find in Eb. Due to life changes I ended up downsizing and decided to sell my CC and keep the Eb.

I don’t regret it but depending on how much you play being on one instrument is doable but not always ideal. I love my Eb tubas but vintage ones can have problematic tuning. My Willson is 5 valves and plays very well to me but is not perfect. I use a couple alternate fingerings.

I’ve played the 3+1 Besson and if you can deal with that configuration they are hard to beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tubajug]

I bought a three valve Eb tuba (Lyon and Healy) super cheap to practice some repair skills. I ended up it using for a Christmas gig the year I finished it and liked it a lot. I bought another three-banger Eb (H.N. White King) that I played for years with just three valves. I liked it so much I converted it to a five valve, front-action horn and now I use for just about all the playing I do these days.

[bloke]

Rereading the original post - to remind myself of specifics - made me chuckle.
The last time I played the Berlioz, I played it on euphonium (with a generously sized euphonium mouthpiece, and not any sort of tuba-like mouthpiece).
The next time that piece comes around (a bit too often, but OK…), i’m going to do the same thing again, and doubt that I’ll ever again drag my F tuba in to play that piece…It’s just too easy with a (larger) compensating euphonium. A few pitches (C) are just a little bit low, but C is good sounding (and in tune) with a large compensating euphonium, and the highest pitch is a manageable (and scalularly-approached) euphonium “high B-flat”.

[greenbean]

A 3+1 Eb compensator is the way to go, IMO. They are really quite awesome.