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Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:09 pm
by bort2.0
Because I'm not Gene Pokorny and need all the "help" I can get!
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:59 pm
by kingrob76
I am an unabashed 6/4 CC owner and operator. Depending on the mouthpiece I put in it I can make it sound more or less "woofy", but none of the pieces I have in my rotation fall into that "woofy" category. I slapped my Giddings MMVI in it the other night at an orchestra rehearsal and it lit up the horn (almost too much, had to be careful) whereas my Parke Ofenloch offers a nice blend of "sparkle" and breadth at the same time. I've been luck enough the past 6 months to get decent recordings of full ensemble rehearsals and concerts so I can really evaluate what this horn likes and responds to as I play it. My biggest complaint about this 6/4 Eastman is all the water it collects.
Like anything, some things work for some people and not for others. No, 6/4 tubas are not magic beans and they are not meant for everyone but they do have a time and place. I'm not sure I could comfortably play a quintet gig on this horn but I could certainly play it competently. At some point I'll add a 4/4 CC to sit between my 836 and my Besson 983 mostly because I'm lazy, but I really won't need it.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:23 am
by Breavdah
Let 'em. I'll just continue to smirk after blowing them out of the water with a $1200 discontinued model B&H BBb.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:17 pm
by bloke
Breavdah wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:23 am
Let 'em. I'll just continue to smirk after blowing them out of the water with a $1200 discontinued model B&H BBb.
The vintage compensating ones (particularly with 24-inch recording bells) not only played in tune (other than upper E-flat) and put out a tremendous - and a tremendous amount of - sound, but we're also fully chromatic.
(Later - when they started messing with them, the tuning went awry.)
A while back - just for fun - I was playing an outdoor gig with a community band (several good pieces on the docket, so...). As luck would have it, a full-time professional tuba player walked by and stopped right in front of me. I thought he was going to crack some joke at the end of the tune about me "slumming it" or something. I greeted him when the tune ended, and he responded with "It
really sounds great man!". I was playing one of those.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:50 pm
by JC2
bloke wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:33 am
After all these years, I've ended up with a 6/4 B-flat (German made and rotary valves) but it's somewhat of a of a hybrid that sits on the fence between a German kaiser orchestra tuba and an early 20th century "American" design 6/4 B-flat string bass substitute (the original B-flat versions of the factory cutdown C instruments which are being discussed in this thread).
>>> That's neither here nor there <<< , but what I really wanted to express was the fact that this instrument is hand-made of sheet brass, and I don't think it would sound any different were in hydraulically formed, but would just weigh about three or four pounds more, and I wouldn't have to be quite as careful with it...and I sorta doubt that it would've cost any less.
You don't find there's a difference between a B&S Symphonie and a PT-9? More or less the same tuba except one is hand-hammered.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:10 pm
by JC2
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:22 pm
JC2 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:20 am
I really wish there was an excellent handmade 5/4 Piston CC on the market. Maybe Rudy Meinl makes one? I think there's potential for something great to happen if Meinl Weston, B&S or another big brand decided to make one. It seems like the 5/4 models are never made to the same quality as the handmade 6/4 instruments. E.g there's a 6450/2 but there isn't a MW 5450/2.
A tuba that could work really well would be a B&S MRP-C piston version made from hand hammered sheet brass. I'll be curious to see if that ever comes to fruition. I'm very doubtful though
You should look for an older PT-6... the earliest ones (early 90s?) were fully handmade. I owned a rotary PT6 from this era and it was fantastic. It was lively and had the "zip" that often comes with a fully handmade instrument. It weighted only 22 pounds!
Would a Gronitz PCK be too big for you?
Are Adams tubas fully handmade?
I doubt there's much interest from Meinl Weston to make /2 versions of many instruments... and sort of wonder if the 6450/2 only exists because el jefe wanted that for himself, so they made it an option for anyone.
FWIW, my understanding is that for the MW "/2" instruments and all B&S instruments, the large bows are sort of handmade by default... they are cut from sheet brass, brazed and hand-formed into conical sections, but then hydraulically formed for the last 5-10% to make sure that it's exactly the right size and taper. So, not 100% hand formed, but 90% is a whole lot better than doing it all hydraulically.
FWIW #2, the whole "issue" with hydraulically formed bows/tubing anyway is that when it's blown the material on the resulting bows is not of even thickness... the brass is thicker on the small end, and thinner on the large end. When these pieces are assembled end-to-end, the joints all have these uneven thick/thin parts butted up against each other, and this lack of smoothness at the joints -- multiple times over -- can cause disruptions to the sound waves/air/etc. However, the effects of this could be minor, and could be outweighed by the benefits of computerization and very high tolerances to design specs (low error).
When the bows/tubing are fully hand-formed, you can achieve a much more even thickness (or thinness, rater) of the brass, and eliminate those thick/thin joints between pieces of tubing... nice and smooth. The tradeoff, though, is human error... even if the parts are built well, they might be off-spec by some amount, and the effects of multiple parts that are a little bit "off" can quickly compound. That's why there's a lot of variation in handmade instruments -- some are spectacular, some are pitchy... but they all sound and respond great, so a lot of people tend to accept more intonation stuff than we should.
The MW/B&S method of doing 90% handmade and 10% machine-finished seems like a pretty fair tradeoff.
I can only speak from my experience. I notice a considerable difference between a hand-hammered vs a production tuba of the same model. Playing and listening there's a noticeable difference.
Typically hand made instruments are much more 'alive' to play. The soft response is much better. You can diminuendo down to nothing and the sound will stay alive, much more readily than a production instrument. Generally you have more ability to have different 'colours' from the instrument.
There are a few playing benefits from a production instrument. Typically are a bit more even, slightly denser tone.
I have actually played on a vintage PT-6 (handmade bows) and compared directly to a recent PT-6. Completely different animals. I much preferred the older vintage. Darker sound, faster response, more colour.
Respectfully offering my thoughts and opinion.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:30 pm
by bloke
JC2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:50 pm
bloke wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:33 am
After all these years, I've ended up with a 6/4 B-flat (German made and rotary valves) but it's somewhat of a of a hybrid that sits on the fence between a German kaiser orchestra tuba and an early 20th century "American" design 6/4 B-flat string bass substitute (the original B-flat versions of the factory cutdown C instruments which are being discussed in this thread).
>>> That's neither here nor there <<< , but what I really wanted to express was the fact that this instrument is hand-made of sheet brass, and I don't think it would sound any different were in hydraulically formed, but would just weigh about three or four pounds more, and I wouldn't have to be quite as careful with it...and I sorta doubt that it would've cost any less.
You don't find there's a difference between a B&S Symphonie and a PT-9? More or less the same tuba except one is hand-hammered.
I'm actually beginning to wonder if the main difference is the mouthpipe. The choke point on mouthpipe tubes of some of the nicer-playing Symphonie model F tubas is quite small - which can be traced back to really early ones sporting small shank receivers) and the expansion taper is quite delayed. I'm fairly sure that I've noticed that - once pt-10's began being made (with larger mouthpipe tubes at both ends - leading up to a larger initial valve section bore size) the PT-9 things' mouthpipe tubes (though their large ends were still only 17 mm) were larger at the small end...
...and this likelihood pretty easy to accept, as the beginning of the PT era at B&S was also the beginning of the "anything bigger is better" era with tubas. (Have we have we gotten to the end of that era, or isn't that what this thread is all about?)
... I'm also remembering when they decided to copy Howard Johnson's Mahillon tuba, but they didn't have the courage (or whatever..??) to to maintain the 16 mm bore size, and made the thing with a 17mm bore size; it certainly didn't play the same (as I played those when they came out, and I also own a Mahillon - though this is probably the first time I've mentioned it publicly).
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:44 pm
by bort2.0
@JC2 Another example of comparison for me was the Nirschl 4/4 CC vs the Besson 995. And even the Nirschl tubas had a few different confusing categories of varying levels of handmade... OMG I could never keep it straight, and I think it was also inconsistent... But even the least handmade of the Nirschl tubas was still somewhat handmade.
But, I got to try one of the fully handmade ones, and holy crap, that was probably the best tuba I've ever played. "Alive" doesn't even start to describe it, what an incredible instrument. It's like when you drive a really nice car that just responds super quickly to acceleration, braking, steering, handling, etc...
Sit that down, pick up the Besson 995. It felt like the same tuba, but several pounds heavier, and just drudgery to try and play it. It was like driving a U-Haul truck. And I'll never forget that in the staff, no combination of fingerings seemed to make a different pitch... 0, 1, 2, 12, etc... All sounded the same. So maybe it was somehow broken or in disrepair... Whatever it was, it really sucked.
I later tried a decent Besson 995, but it still felt like a heavy and weighed-down version of that Nirschl. The Nirschl was also about 35% more expensive, but for any price, that Besson was just not it for me. This was early in the 995 production for these, and both were made in England, I believe.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:48 pm
by bloke
Early 995 Nirschl-ish tĥings varied wildly.
[and - just to be clear - this is an off-topic sidebar, because these are not 6/4 size tubas]
The best one I ever played of that style was admittedly a "handmade", but it also wouldn't play up to pitch, and the tuning slide had already been cut to the quick. I had to bend a shorter mouthpipe tube for it - yet manage to get the receiver to land in the same spot - in order to get it up to pitch.
Tactile differences - certainly even including overly strong valve springs (and all sorts of things including weight) - can certainly have an effect on a player's opinion of an instrument and how it sounds, as the tactile things are completely distracting them while they're trying to play it.
It's very difficult to REALLY listen to an instrument while also playing it, and particularly while being poked by a stick (ie. tactile distractions).
All sorts of biases can come into play. One time I was rehearsing "Pictures" while borrowing someone's else instrument. The principal horn player knew who's tuba it was, didn't think a lot of that player, and told me that I needed to get a different instrument to play "Pictures,", because that one sounded bad...LOL... It sounded fine, and I sounded fine playing it, but they were just so terribly biased against that other player that even looking at their instrument made them hear bad sounds which weren't bad.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:38 pm
by jtm
JC2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:10 pm
...
I can only speak from my experience. I notice a considerable difference between a hand-hammered vs a production tuba of the same model. Playing and listening there's a noticeable difference.
Typically hand made instruments are much more 'alive' to play. The soft response is much better. You can diminuendo down to nothing and the sound will stay alive, much more readily than a production instrument. Generally you have more ability to have different 'colours' from the instrument.
...
Is it possible to tell how it was made from the outside, without having witnessed the manufacturing?
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:46 am
by JC2
jtm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:38 pm
JC2 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:10 pm
...
I can only speak from my experience. I notice a considerable difference between a hand-hammered vs a production tuba of the same model. Playing and listening there's a noticeable difference.
Typically hand made instruments are much more 'alive' to play. The soft response is much better. You can diminuendo down to nothing and the sound will stay alive, much more readily than a production instrument. Generally you have more ability to have different 'colours' from the instrument.
...
Is it possible to tell how it was made from the outside, without having witnessed the manufacturing?
Yes, you can often see the hammer marks on the bow if you look down the bell. Also, if you tap the metal with your fingers hand hammered instruments have a distinctive sound to them.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:59 am
by Doc
donn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:04 pm
bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:30 am
From my perspective, there's a lot of tuba playing that is not orchestral. In fact it seems most tuba playing is not orchestral. Bands, quintet, dixieland, jazz/combo, etc...so there's very little need for all those bats.
Sure, no dixieland tuba player would go for something like a Conn 20J or the same size Martin.
Neither those nor Mid-Western style polka music.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:24 am
by bloke
I continue to be convinced (contend?) that those big wide American-made B-Flats (Conn, Holton, Martin, York, etc,) were designed and intended to imitate the sound of a string bass - regardless of the venue.
"Kaiser" (central European orcgestra-played and built) B-Flats inately produce a different type of sound. For those who are familiar with the Meinl-Weston 25, I would describe it as that type of sound - except larger. It's a noble type of sound, and also a little bit (using an adjective that doesn't sound as complementary as "noble") throaty.
The Czech-made 6/4 bells (and even extreme eastern European 6/4 bells - VINTAGE Markneukirchen) more resemble American 6/4 bells. More recently, Meinl-Weston introduced a model 195 Kaiser B-flat tuba that features a bell that is sort of a compromise between the two bell profile styles, and Miraphone followed up later with a Model 98 - which I own - that's even more of a blend. (My preferences and fondness for the model 98 have nothing to do with anything, but the 98 didn't seem to sell all that well, and Miraphone stepped back a little bit and offered a model 497, which looks and sounds more like a M-W model 95, and that seems to be selling fairly well...??) These "middle of the road" Kaiser bell tapers take some of the nose or throatiness off of the Kaiser sound.
Circling back to the "tactile" thing - that I brought up a few posts ago, Kaiser B flat tubas feel different from American-style string bass-sounding 6/4 tubas (as well as those which are factory cut to C), because the Kaiser mouthpipes are longer, the rotary valve bore sizes are larger, and - well - they are B-flat length.
I view the CSO York tuba - which was factory cut to C, via a special order from one of America's only major orchestras during that time - to be an anomaly that has curiously been imitated in astonishing quantities... Based on listening, I sort of think that Mr Jacobs allowed that tuba to do what it does, which is to sound like a string bass (and even in his personal articulation style) but some of those who own the imitations often tend to push them to sound more like smaller tubas, via putting a tremendous amount of energy in them and getting a "harder" type of sound out of them...
...or you can view all the rhetoric that I just typed to be completely full of beans.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:23 pm
by Doc
bloke wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:24 am
I continue to be convinced (contend?) that those big wide American-made B-Flats (Conn, Holton, Martin, York, etc,) were designed and intended to imitate the sound of a string bass - regardless of the venue.
"Kaiser" (central European orcgestra-played and built) B-Flats inately produce a different type of sound. For those who are familiar with the Meinl-Weston 25, I would describe it as that type of sound - except larger. It's a noble type of sound, and also a little bit (using an adjective that doesn't sound as complementary as "noble") throaty.
The Czech-made 6/4 bells (and even extreme eastern European 6/4 bells - VINTAGE Markneukirchen) more resemble American 6/4 bells. More recently, Meinl-Weston introduced a model 195 Kaiser B-flat tuba that features a bell that is sort of a compromise between the two bell profile styles, and Miraphone followed up later with a Model 98 - which I own - that's even more of a blend. (My preferences and fondness for the model 98 have nothing to do with anything, but the 98 didn't seem to sell all that well, and Miraphone stepped back a little bit and offered a model 497, which looks and sounds more like a M-W model 95, and that seems to be selling fairly well...??) These "middle of the road" Kaiser bell tapers take some of the nose or throatiness off of the Kaiser sound.
Circling back to the "tactile" thing - that I brought up a few posts ago, Kaiser B flat tubas feel different from American-style string bass-sounding 6/4 tubas (as well as those which are factory cut to C), because the Kaiser mouthpipes are longer, the rotary valve bore sizes are larger, and - well - they are B-flat length.
I view the CSO York tuba - which was factory cut to C, via a special order from one of America's only major orchestras during that time - to be an anomaly that has curiously been imitated in astonishing quantities... Based on listening, I sort of think that Mr Jacobs allowed that tuba to do what it does, which is to sound like a string bass (and even in his personal articulation style) but some of those who own the imitations often tend to push them to sound more like smaller tubas, via putting a tremendous amount of energy in them and getting a "harder" type of sound out of them...
...or you can view all the rhetoric that I just typed to be completely full of beans.
I like the nose and throatiness a Kaiser can produce. I like beans, too.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:08 pm
by bloke
@Doc
I just emailed you.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:12 pm
by matt g
arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 am
What do you think about the recent trend of younger players/college students buying newer affordable 6/4 CC York copies, like the Eastman 836, Wessex, and ZO, as their primary contrabass instrument throughout their undergraduate studies?
Coming back to this…
-Is it really the kids/students or teachers/instructors?
-Provided the trend continues, market saturation will happen at some point: a plethora of cheap 6/4 Chinese tubas for use and parts.
-As I pondered upon a couple of years back, given the continued production of these horns and assuming some variance of “playability”, there will be a copy that surpasses the original. Possibly several. (This has probably happened already with most of the Yamaha copies.)
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:53 am
by donn
Doc wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:23 pm
I like the nose and throatiness a Kaiser can produce. I like beans, too.
"Nose"? Same here on beans.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:47 am
by Three Valves
bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:02 am
@donn, you moved to Portugal?
As if the lawlessness, high taxes and violence were not enough, he couldn't take having the Walmart and Cracker Barrel leave town.
A man gots to know his limitations.
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:09 am
by dp
arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 am
What do you think about the recent trend of younger players/college students buying newer affordable 6/4 CC York copies, like the Eastman 836, Wessex, and ZO, as their primary contrabass instrument throughout their undergraduate studies?
Me:
The people who "developed" and now sell (distribute) these things:
The studio teachers logging tenure:
For every one of you guys making a few C notes here and there selling these horns, go take a look at the GoFundMe for Roger Bobo's hospital care
-30-
Re: 6/4 glut
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:21 pm
by humBell
donn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:53 am
Doc wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:23 pm
I like the nose and throatiness a Kaiser can produce. I like beans, too.
"Nose"? Same here on beans.
Beans are the musical fruit, so i hear.
(and i'll believe there is a 6/4 glut when there is a 90% off clearance bin... but never-the-less this thread is worth the read)