TubaForum.net

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:53 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:02 pm Before he died, a retired band teacher and principal double-bassist emeritus of the regional orchestra played tuba in my community band. I don't know where he found it, but he found a Conn small bore BBb that was easy to carry and had decent intonation.

Yikes. Well at least I know what NOT to do.

What? Retire?

iiipopes wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:33 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:53 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:02 pm Before he died, a retired band teacher and principal double-bassist emeritus of the regional orchestra played tuba in my community band. I don't know where he found it, but he found a Conn small bore BBb that was easy to carry and had decent intonation.

Yikes. Well at least I know what NOT to do.

What? Retire?

No. All of those things that you listed that he did after that which apparently led to his death. Re-read what you wrote.

.

Tubeast wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:01 am
Modern compositions for band / symphonic winds tends to be written for contrabass tubas only, which is a pity.
In traditional band literature, the high tuba voice closes the gap between tubas and tenors, soundwise, and it adds clarity.
The higher voices are set so this will actually work out.

In modern band literature, playing an octave above the bass voice will mess up the tenor voices, and composers don´t seem to want there to be that additional color.

Thanks, that’s an interesting insight. I suppose that does lead the discussion back to give it a go and see what issues emerge, whilst being aware that some pieces might give issues … and that depending upon what’s in the band’s music library you might never see those pieces.

I don't know about most professional military American wind bands, most American high school or college wind bands, or American community bands - other than the one low profile non-amazing, made-up-of-really-nice-people one that I rehearse with from time to time, but when older compositions are encountered that seem to be written in octaves - hinting at quasi brass band e-flat/b-flat style writing for "the basses", most everybody the (ie. In that one community band) ignores the upper line - particularly when it seems to be covered by baritone horn parts, bassoon parts, bass trombone parts, etc.

[

Dents Be Gone! wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:51 am Be the odd duck and don’t keep up? Elmer Fudd will be on your tail.

I've had about 2 FUDDs, both trombone players. One in a military band for an entire tour, and then another one as a conductor, in a community orchestra. Poor lifestyles contribute to their problems to the point they have that physical resemblance, and then need to play an F attachment horn because of poor conditioning, shorter arms. And that includes the other performance issue with small hands, feet, and arms. Most Fudds listen with their eyes, judging you, your horn, rather than the sound produced.

I play a Bach bass trombone with Butler CF mods, and probably should find a nice 3/4 BBb. I'm playing a 4/4 Y 641 BBb. Use what ever equipment you need to make your sound. An assistive stand, cushion, harness......

I manage my Fudds by blocking phone numbers, social media profiles, and filters on emails.

The first step in avoiding a trap, is knowing of it's existence.

Unless some judge my video examples as sucking (and I wouldn't really be surprised by that) ...

I tried to help make other people's points that a tuba is - overwhelmingly - going to sound like the player and is going to sound like the player's purpose...
two same-F-tuba examples:
- mellow/bass jazz band tuba sound (striving to sound like some sort of large-bell contrabass tuba)
- orchestra "power-tuba" sound (pushing through past a pipe organ - an organ with most all of it's stops pulled and doors open)
...It also occur(ed/s) to me that the Organ Symphony was (likely/surely) played first on one of the tons-o-valves French 8-foot-long-bugle euphonium-sized tubas, so why wouldn't a 17-21mm bore F tuba with a 16-1/2 bell be "plenty" for that same piece?

F tuba can work in a community band. It depends mostly on how many are in your section and in the band total. No matter which key of tuba you’re playing, if you’re playing in a band with more than 25 people by yourself, even a 6/4 BBb won’t be enough. For every 25 people in the band 1 of those people should be a tuba player.

Our community band is 50 piece and I play Eb comper while the other guy plays BBb Miraphone 186. We put out enough sound to support the band no problem.

Edit: While I have supported a 50 piece band by myself using a 5/4 CC, I don’t recommend it at all. You will tire yourself out just to keep the foundation going.

When I've brought an F tuba to community band, I don't haphazardly take things up an octave. The tuba is happy enough to play down to pedal Bb (is that Bb0, just below C1?) for me, so the normal tuba parts that go down to E1 or F1 are fine. I'm just not as quick with the fingers for those low notes as I'd like.

eupho wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:21 am I have gotten to that stage in life where the weight of a nice BBb or CC full-size tuba is no longer manageable. ...

This F tuba has a 420mm bell and is only a few pounds lighter than a regular contrabass tuba like a Miraphone 186. You might be happier with a small contrabass, unless you'd just enjoy (as a euphonium player) being able to have a beautiful bass tuba high range.

I rarely play band concerts, but I'm trying to offer some useful "F tuba" insights...
...In the past, my ONLY tuba - for several years - was my F tuba, so I didn't just practice recital pieces and Berlioz licks on it, and then stick it back in the sack.
NONE of them may be of any value, so (if everything below ends up being full of beans) just please ignore all.

Not-huge symphony orchestras are often around sixty players.
If anyone is under the impression that a bunch of good string players don't make a bunch of racket, that person hasn't played in an orchestra.
...Stand next to a good violinist who's playing through misc. passages...ie. LOUD !!!
How good are medium-size-city per-service orchestra string sections, these days?
With awareness of the dynamic - ie. the glut of conservatory graduates: They're semi-amazing.

Sixteen (or - certainly - twenty) good fiddle players can make a TON of racket (and more than that many clarinets, because of the shimmer).
Orchestras only feature one tuba.
Particularly in pops arrangements, the tuba tends to be quite prominent, and a few basses - playing along with the tuba - isn't probably not as much help as one more really good additional tuba.
I could take my F tuba to most any orchestra concert and play most any (and with a few exceptions) literature with it.
It's often more "fun" to take a large tuba, so I use it when the technical/velocity demands (at a particular concert) are less...and sure: other demands on other types of energy (when playing a big tuba) are more.
If I want my F tuba to "bite" less (at top volume levels), I can change that with a medium (rather than medium-shallow) mouthpiece.

old saying:
"The basses [tubas] should be felt, and not heard."
The overwhelming majority of the time (were I to follow that old adage), conductors/directors would probably look up and ask if I entered when I was supposed to...
...ie. We are expected to put quite a bit of energy into our instruments - regardless of length/size.

When I rarely am forced to miss a series of orchestra services (whether the substitute is a former/current military musician, college teacher, graduate student, etc.) I hear something like this from the trombones (every single time), "The music director had to encourage them to play out several times, but they finally put out enough sound."

one last thing:
When some concerts are officially/unofficially videoed (and regardless of the quality of the microphones or their placement) - and there are a few pitches or passages that (it seemed to me) that I may have possibly played "over the top" (yet NEVER "called out") - when I listen to the recordings, the tuba sound - at those specific places - seems to be "just about right".

summary:
Of course, we should play WELL (with musical taste/phrasing, and all of the lower skill sets required to play instruments) but also play OUT...regardless of the particular instrument.
I use my ability to "fade out to nothing" (which I'm pretty good at doing) as a nice musical effect, but - were I to interpret "ppp" as - literally - "ALMOST nothing", the music director (and I KNOW this would happen) would stop and say, "I don't hear the tuba...(??)".

sidebar:
I have one music director of one orchestra who looks at me before EVERY SINGLE tuba entrance. How cool is that?

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:20 pm

iiipopes wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:33 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:53 pm

Yikes. Well at least I know what NOT to do.

What? Retire?

No. All of those things that you listed that he did after that which apparently led to his death. Re-read what you wrote.

All he did after he retired was to play the 3/4 Conn BBb in community band. He was the principal double bassist for the regional symphony for decades. The band teaching part of his career was junior high band. Now from that is where he knew what was a decent smaller sized tuba, and more than likely, remembering how I was in junior high band, assuredly the long-term effects of teaching junior high for all those years is what killed him.

just a bad joke - taking advantage of your wording

LCTuba89 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:15 am F tuba can work in a community band. It depends mostly on how many are in your section and in the band total. No matter which key of tuba you’re playing, if you’re playing in a band with more than 25 people by yourself, even a 6/4 BBb won’t be enough. For every 25 people in the band 1 of those people should be a tuba player.

Our community band is 50 piece and I play Eb comper while the other guy plays BBb Miraphone 186. We put out enough sound to support the band no problem.

Edit: While I have supported a 50 piece band by myself using a 5/4 CC, I don’t recommend it at all. You will tire yourself out just to keep the foundation going.

An interesting perspective though I’m uncertain of how many other low pitched instruments there would be in such a group. In a Brass Band there are four Tubas and the whole band is circa twenty five players. It’s possible to get away with playing with less Tubas but actually five is quite desirable.

On Tuba pitch the rule of thumb given to me was: the Eb (Tuba) gives the note, the BBb adds weight to it and the Bass Trombone adds edge to it.

On the splitting of octaves, the Eb’s and BBb’s sometimes having split parts, when I listen I notice that some pieces/chords are enhanced or strengthened by the higher pitched note.

orchestration/instrumentation:

I don't believe I possess enough imagination to be any sort of a good composer (though that hasn't stopped many others ), but - though I don't do it very often - I believe I am pretty good at "hearing" things ahead of time (based on how orchestrated music appears on paper). What I'm saying is thaat the few pieces that I have arranged have all "worked" (at least, they sounded like they "worked" TO ME).

again:
An octave above the tuba - often (and particularly with somewhat predictable compositions) sounds pretty good...but (notice that) composers of orchestral works almost never write for a 2nd tuba and - when they rarely do - it's seldom "in octaves". Tubas are like spices (even though the resonance of a tuba isn't particularly spicy, and is more "pudding" or "dough" like) in that a little bit is usually a LOT. If one player is unable to hold down the tuba part singular: "part") satisfactorily in a wind band, it's just fine to add one or two more (in unison), but (to my ears) "octave tubas" - very quickly - is too rich (I discussed too much mezzo/tenor/alto-range voicing in many/most wind bands and compositions written for them). Though the "British-style brass band" has a tradition of (mostly) octave contrabass-bass tubas, I don't view it as necessarily good. Tchaikovsky put a tuba and a bass trombone in octaves fairly often, but the bass trombone offers shimmer and - though loud - the sound of the bass trombone isn't "thick". For the same reason, tuba/euphonium doubled octaves (in my opinion) also is not a particularly good idea...again: too thick - and cluttering the overtone spectrum (additionally) with octave overtones which clutter listeners' ears - as those ears - mostly - are concentrating on the highest (melody) voices.

Though I also believe that geese (aka saxophones) clutter up the resonance/sonority of wind bands (even when only two altos, one tenor, and one baritone) with way too much (and too loud) "middle range" sound, I believe they clutter up the sound LESS THAN two "bass" tubas doubling everything the (two?) "contrabass" tubas are doing - in octaves.

I'm not saying anything is "wrong"...I'm just saying that I (aka: bloke) don't care for it...and (maybe?) for the same reason(s), that I find it difficult to listen to "tuba quartet" music (two tubas/two euphoniums).

I believe most people's ears prefer:
- dominant soprano (or melody)
- strong/clear bass
- a "dusting" of tenor/alto sound (though those voices can come to prominence for various strains/sections - within any piece - to offer some sonic variety...but with the higher-pitched voices (usually) getting out of the way, during those sections.

Quite a few orchestras feature around 60 - 65 players.
Out of those, the "mezzo" voiced instruments include the 1st trombone, 3 of the four horns, (if written) 1 ("third") trumpet, (perhaps) 6 violas, and 1 English horn, and 1 (first) bassoon...(only a dozen or so). Otherwise, most everything else is either soprano or baritone/bass/contrabass.
This is why (nearly every time) when there is a symphony orchestra version of a piece and a wind band version (not "arranged" by someone else, but both scored by the composer) of the same piece, the symphony orchestra version is going to offer more sonic clarity (even though using more different types of instruments - namely: bowed stringed instruments).

Lately, I've been trying to read the TOPIC TITLE each time I post, rather than (only) being (typically) dragged along with our "stream of consciousness) de facto thread style, so...
Even a 5-valved F tuba is capable of producing pitches below the range of an 88-key piano, so it's just as much a "contrabass" instrument as it is a "bass" instrument. If the sound in the F tuba player's head (and actually produced) is the type of resonance that people expect to hear from a tuba in a wind band (a lot of "pudding" and "dough"), an F tuba will do just fine.

In a community band, the low brass section, doesn't sit behind six viola players.

At about 19 years old, I started tuba in a youth community band (when you´re 25, you have to resign and move on to other bands in the area, if you want to keep playing).
Two years later, I "upgraded" from a 3/4 3valved BBb to a 6v Melton 46 (the small one with 38cm bell).
(That was the general mindset of that time and peer group: You sort-of graduated from BBb to F-tuba, leaving the other one behind)

Many times, I was the only tubist trying my best to support a 30 to 45 piece band as the only tubist on the low tuba part (of course).
So basically, I was playing the contrabass part on an F on a regular basis, which may have been a great idea to introduce oneself to that kind of horn. We had a CD-production back then with two F-tubas only, splitting into bass- and contrabass parts.
Worked just fine, I´m not ashamed of that CD at all, even today.

Since the pedal range of an F speaks very openly at a range my old tuba had depended (and, frankly, sucked) on "privileged notes", my younger self figured a large F was all one needed to play ANY literature, a notion I have recovered from only twenty years ago. .

So, as many have stated before me: Yes, go ahead and play that F-tuba. Not only will it work, but your band might actually benefit from it. Provided you´re well in-tune with your BBb-buddies, your voice will add well-needed clarity even when played in unison.

Schlitzz wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:01 pm In a community band, the low brass section, doesn't sit behind six viola players.

But you're sort of making my.point.
In a wind band - whether it's community, school, or professional - the tubas are sitting behind a whole bunch more mezzo/alto voice instruments than in an orchestra, including the geese/saxophones and a whole bunch of other alto voice instruments - which clutter up sonic characteristics
Really fine band directors and professional military bands are pretty good at counteracting this, but wind bands still sound - in live performances - to me as if the treble knob has been turned down, and particularly with mouthpieces and instruments that are in vogue these days. Doubling tuba octaves - to me - adds more alto/mezzo pudding into that mix, which just clutters the sound even more. I've already said all this in my just-previous post. I don't know how to express it any more clearly. Someone can disagree with me, but they can't change the impression that a wind band's sonic characteristics makes on my ears.
===========
Getting back to the main topic again of what size instrument to play the regular contrabass tuba part in a wind band, in my last year of undergraduate stuff - which was my third year I took a bunch of courses every semester and loaded myself up in the summers as well) I think there were two or three concert bands that included everyone who was on the fairly generous scholarships which were offered to be in the marching band people. There was one concert band of music majors in the fall, and everyone - who had been in the marching band - was in one in the spring. That year, I just used my 184 to play in the concert band. There had been three of us in that band the previous year, but the second player had left school. He was a fine player, and the person who auditioned third was later deemed to not play up to the standards of the band, and was sent down to the second band. What I'm saying is that I just played the 184 ("poor man's F tuba...??) by myself in what I'm thinking was maybe a 50-piece university concert band of strong players, playing challenging music. I think they use some fancy schmancy sounding name like "symphonic wind ensemble", or something like that. Big fat tubas can do some things, but smaller tubas can put out plenty of sound and with additional clarity. I was never asked to play louder in that band, and the tuba sounded present, clear, and not too brash (not at all) on recordings.
Sitting just to my right was Dave Duro...Does he still play with Burning River Brass?
http://www.burningriverbrass.com/concerts.html


Yes, those were model 22K sousaphones.
They were already twenty years old, worked fine,
put out tons of good sound, and this was back before
government debt and taxation were both hopelessly
out of control.
A few years after I graduated, they bought some used
Olds/Reynolds/Conn sousaphones which I straightened
out and silver plated for them.
After that, they bought a set of silver Kings.
Right before the band director (pictured) retired, he had
me remove ALL the dents from ALL of them, and clean
them up nicely for the next band director.
The next band director replaced them with Weril.

so this is Dave Duro (now: an old guy lik me) with BRB...When was this taken?