POLL: Holton 6/4 BB-flat model BB345 tuba - 5th valve?

[bloke]

I'm thinking that these factors:

- remarkably long #1 slide
- additionally accessible upper #3 and #4 slides
- range to "low C" via epic #1 slide pull
...ie.

C1.png (4.48 KiB) Viewed 1087 times

- any REAL need for B-natural "down there" (other than as a "false tone")?
- Whether there is any validity in their beliefs, some seem to believe that 5th valves "mess up" tubas.

...eh...??

[dp]

I voted "nope" you should add TWO rotors in there after all there's just so much room

[Sousaswag]

I voted “nope” because mine won’t have one

But realistically, in my opinion it’s not really necessary. Slides are plenty long enough for what you need. Who even plays low B on BBb tuba anyway??

[bloke]

I had a written C-sharp (in a commissioned orchestra piece written by one of those young inexperienced composers who write too low for the tuba)...

ie. " 'Contrabass' tuba must mean that it's an octave below bass trombone, just as with the contrabassoon to the bassoon....WRONG...OK: unless Tchaikovsky or Clydesdale"

I encountered a C-natural in a "mainstream" piece (ok, and there is Bruckner 4...), and - when no organ - I have "helped" the contrabassoon at the beginning of Zarathustra (false tone, which is easier to play soft and for a long time).

By the way I worded the original post, I'm certain that it's obvious that my bias leans strongly towards taking it apart, straightening things out, putting it back together far more carefully than some (resentful of the assignment...??) assembly person at the Holton plant did several decades ago, and not adding any "enhancements".

The "dead" loop on the back/inside of the #4 circuit doesn't run very parallel to the other slide tubing, but - since there are a couple of key "contact brace" points on it, I'm thinking that I might better leave that as it was original built.

[MiBrassFS]

5th valve!? I don’t even have a 4th valve on mine…!

[bloke]

5th valve!? I don’t even have a 4th valve on mine…!

I suppose you omit the trills in your Bach cello suite dance movements, then...(??)

[York-aholic]

5th valve!? I don’t even have a 4th valve on mine…!

I suppose you omit the trills in your Bach cello suite dance movements, then...(??)

He does them as lip trills…

[MiBrassFS]

Are them trills done on the “Ooms” or the “Pahs?”

Y’all is fancy…

[djwpe]

A flat half-step 5th valve might be nice for those b-naturals. When I had my Holton I recall needing a long pull on 4 for that note played 4-2.

Don

[tofu]

troll or poll?

As you already know - it depends on who you plan to sell it to.

I’d think a pro would really want it - their job and group depends on being able to deliver at the highest possible standards - and they’d be willing to pay the extra cost to achieve that. A serious amateur - maybe - the show off people definitely. Personally, for the few times I’d ever use it I wouldn’t want the extra weight to drag around the other 99% of the time it was not needed - nor the added expense of it.

To me and I think for most people - it’s like 4 valve Sousaphones. The music doesn’t need it 99.99% of the time - false tones cover the few times 4 valves are necessary. Hauling around the extra valve weight and the added cost of the extra valve seems nuts. Has anybody ever sitting up in row 349 complained during the halftime show - “man those sousaphones are wildly out of tune on that low Eb” ???

[Mark]

When Miraphone first released the Hagen, the tuba only had four valves. Miraphone said that a fifth valve was not necessary. Well, Miraphone now makes Hagens with five valves.

On a B-flat tuba, if you have an Eb and it goes by fast and often, having a fifth valve makes it a lot easier.

Is a fifth valve necessary? No. But it is not necessary on a CC tuba either. How well do four-valve CC tubas sell?

[Kevbach33]

A flat half-step 5th valve might be nice for those b-naturals. When I had my Holton I recall needing a long pull on 4 for that note played 4-2.

Don

This (and also for the low E) is the way...

...IF you can make it fit. (What is it about the geometry of this design that makes adding a 5th valve difficult?)

If that lowest B somehow shows up, you still have enough pull to make do.

[tofu]

When Miraphone first released the Hagen, the tuba only had four valves. Miraphone said that a fifth valve was not necessary. Well, Miraphone now makes Hagens with five valves.

I’d bet pros asked for it. They probably didn’t see the trend of more pros adding a Bb to their stable

Is a fifth valve necessary? No. But it is not necessary on a CC tuba either. How well do four-valve CC tubas sell?

Again this goes to who is buying it - a pro or an amateur. Few amateurs buy CC tubas. Pros have to have a 5th valve on a CC. As far as Miraphone and Hagan goes - I bet they sell 5 times as many 4 valve Hagans as they do 5 valve versions. It’d be interesting to see how their sales actually break down - that ratio might even be more skewed to 8 or 10 times more.

[Sousaswag]

Whatever Joe does to this 345 will make it one of the best 345’s you could get, 5th valve or not. Because he’s going to make it be what it should’ve been decades ago.

I very much enjoyed reading through his thread on the two 345’s he was working on at the same time. Fascinating stuff, and what I hope my own 345 will be whenever it’s done.

[bloke]

Yes. An FF semitone 5th valve is the length that makes sense for a BB-flat tuba...

...for the already-known-to-me reasons stated above.

The BB-flat that I built for myself features such a valve....Friends told me that it would be a mistake, because t would be different from the 5th valve on the Miraphone 98.

...Nearly every tuba I own has a valve system which differs from the others. (It's actually something I use as a crutch to help me remember which instrument I'm playing.)

That having been said, 5-2-4 ("low" E-flat) isn't quite long enough with this system...though it's "pretty good".
Cancelling this deficiency out - though - with the Holton 345, the 1st slide (again) is epically long, and it's possible to easily pull #1 for a 5-4 "low" E-flat.

Tubas that play remarkably well in tune benefit from 6-valve systems, but - with those that feature quite a few anomalies - the thing is this:
"So what if the low range is in tune when the middle range isn't?"

[bloke]

Whatever Joe does to this 345 will make it one of the best 345’s you could get, 5th valve or not. Because he’s going to make it be what it should’ve been decades ago.

I very much enjoyed reading through his thread on the two 345’s he was working on at the same time. Fascinating stuff, and what I hope my own 345 will be whenever it’s done.

This is (finally) finishing up the second of the two.
Holton 345's are just plain weird.

[MiBrassFS]

When Miraphone first released the Hagen, the tuba only had four valves. Miraphone said that a fifth valve was not necessary. Well, Miraphone now makes Hagens with five valves.

I’d bet pros asked for it.

I bet ‘Muricans asked for it…

[bloke]

Blame the computer age, lax instruction in orchestration classes, and midi keyboards for composers and arrangers writing stuff that dances around the bottom of the piano keyboard as if we are piccolo players.

Maybe we should have big bolts on the back of our tubas where we can fasten on a 5-string bass guitar.

[Mary Ann]

Which is easier to undo?

[MiBrassFS]

Fafner started as a 4v.

Added 5th valve… then… PIIIIIIIISTOOOOOOOOOOONS…

‘Murica…

Not that it’s a bad thing or a negative at all. It’s just taste or preference.