Double flats

[sdloveless]

I have a music theory question. The community band I'm playing in at the moment is working on de Meij's Lord of the Rings. The whole thing is in C. In a couple spots I have some weirdness that I haven't really encountered very many times before, and I can't quite wrap my pea brain around why it's necessary here. The attached image shows a C-flat and and an E-double-flat. I haven't seen the whole score, but I have looked at the trombone and string bass parts, and they both have similar nonsense with no B-flats or D-flats in the same measures. So, why write it like this?

doubleflats.png (13.05 KiB) Viewed 3611 times

[scottw]

Within the chord structure, the Cb and Ebb fit; B and D don't. Confusing reading it this way, but accurate for the chord.

[DonO.]

To elaborate on what scottw said, these notes represent altered tones that don’t naturally occur in C. As such, they have to occupy a certain position in a scale melodically and a certain position in a chord harmonically. Would it be simpler from the player’s perspective if the arranger had just written the enharmonic equivalents of B natural and D natural? Certainly, but in the context of the piece as a whole it wouldn’t make any sense to the composer/arranger because they don’t think in terms of enharmonic equivalents. They need the piece to be notated consistently so that ALL the parts make sense in their heads. Any notes that end up wonky like that as a result, they depend on the players to work that out for themselves.

[bloke]

In another thread, I discussed encountering either a C minor scale (or a C minor arpeggio?) that was misspelled as a B sharp minor arpeggio in one of the Rochut Bordoni books.
It is what it is.
It required some thinking, but - in the key signature - it actually required fewer markings by the composer/publisher re: a whole bunch of natural signs.

[Three Valves]

Another example of how the techno-tyrants remind the littles that they are not part of their club?



Like writing in a “D” will disrupt the entire harmonic continuum galaxy.

[bloke]

Another example of how the techno-tyrants remind the littles that they are not part of their club?



Like writing in a “D” will disrupt the entire harmonic continuum galaxy.

...says the guy who sells pieces of paper (which rarely end up doing anything for anyone) yet contain endless paragraphs of legalese.

bloke "yeah...I'm only messing with you, and I know you're laughing."

[scottw]

Another example of how the techno-tyrants remind the littles that they are not part of their club?



Like writing in a “D” will disrupt the entire harmonic continuum galaxy.

...says the guy who sells pieces of paper (which rarely end up doing anything for anyone) yet contain endless paragraphs of legalese.

bloke "yeah...I'm only messing with you, and I know you're laughing."

But without his services, we would not be able to sleep at night worrying about things.

[bloke]

Another example of how the techno-tyrants remind the littles that they are not part of their club?



Like writing in a “D” will disrupt the entire harmonic continuum galaxy.

...says the guy who sells pieces of paper (which rarely end up doing anything for anyone) yet contain endless paragraphs of legalese.

bloke "yeah...I'm only messing with you, and I know you're laughing."

But without his services, we would not be able to sleep at night worrying about things.

...and without double-sharps and double-flats, we wouldn't have as much about which we can extend trivial discussions.

bloke "Double-sharps and double-flats (2D sh!t) are about .00000000001% as problematic as a bunch of the 3D sh!t that (probably, even some parents here) some peeps' young scholars do to those probably-a-bit-too-nice horns bought for 'em."

[Three Valves]

Update, update, I’ve been a man of leisure (retired) for six months.

[bloke]

Update, update, I’ve been a man of leisure (retired) for six months.

If you have any leftover policies, before putting them in a yard sale, please send me a list.

[arpthark]

As a music theorist, I understand why these things are spelled certain ways, but as an arranger, I try to make the parts make sense and be easier to the performer, either through enharmonic respellings or courtesy accidentals or whatever. I can hang up my music theory hat for a little while so the tuba player is not trying to sight-read a bunch of E-double-flats.

[UncleBeer]

Then there's stuff like this (from an Ewald).

FB_IMG_1548337541942.jpg (12.88 KiB) Viewed 3517 times

[Mary Ann]

As a music theorist, I understand why these things are spelled certain ways, but as an arranger, I try to make the parts make sense and be easier to the performer, either through enharmonic respellings or courtesy accidentals or whatever. I can hang up my music theory hat for a little while so the tuba player is not trying to sight-read a bunch of E-double-flats.

I think this is one of the few instances in which the read-by-pitch people and the read-by-fingering people are going to have the same lag time in mashing the correct valve combo (for the Ebb, not the Cb, which for everyone should be no lag.)

[bloke]

Then there's stuff like this (from an Ewald).


FB_IMG_1548337541942.jpg

Is that F♭ major or D♭ minor?

Bordogni liked to (mostly) load up with sharps, as opposed to flats.
Far more F♯ major than G♭ major found in the second half of the 120 transcribed-for-trombone selected vocalises...and I don't recall ANY C♭ major, though there's absolutely some C♯ major/A♯ minor.

I read though and play all that mess in order to...be able to read through and play just such mess.

Bordogni: His student sopranos were training to sing operas and arias (with string accompaniments) and not studying to sing 20th century "concert band" transcriptions of those works.

ORIGINAL POST - SOMEWHAT RELATED
Sometimes, wind-band music, though, seems to be flat-oriented to a fault.
There's an older wind-band transcription of this march (a march which occurs in the middle of a Berlioz opera).
This is the original orchestra (ophicleide/tuba) part. (Many of us have played it.)
Check out the easy-schmeasy key signature...but the BAND TRANSCRIPTION is an octave lower in SIX FLATS...
(I played that goofy band transcription once...with Bill Revelli waving the stick.)
...so why not (sure...) an octave lower, but in the same key as the original..!?!?

key signature.png (97.83 KiB) Viewed 3477 times

yeah, but bloke...earlier in the March...the clarinet parts are probably in a bad key...

not really...This is earlier part of the March's 1st violin (band transcription: 1st clarinet) part. Notice that the key is the same.
It does move into A major, but not but for two or three staves, and then back to no-sharps-nor-flats...
Re-write the part for B-flat clarinet, and it would be in two sharps (D major - a very common "band" key for B-flat clarinets) and (admittedly, for a short bit) five sharps...but is five sharps worse than six flats...?? really...??




Here's the goofy old band transcription in SIX flats:




bloke "whatever...I'm mostly arguing with myself."