training for Mussorgsky

Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
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bloke
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training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

Anyone who's read my tedious posts know that I haven't practiced seriously for quite a few months. I typically can't in the summer and the summer hot-and-heavy repair season has extended all the way into October (which happens some years). The only playing I've done has been to play engagements which have been maybe once every ten days throughout the summer (as the summer is always the season for the fewest jobs). The jazz jobs have been the most helpful, because I'm playing constantly (and with the low budget for hiring jazz bands, it's usually just quartets, so I'm typically soloing on a chorus on every single song), but the church jobs don't do much for keeping my mouth muscles in condition to play, because there's not all that much playing at church jobs. Even if there are ten or twelve charts, they're spread apart with a lot of long gaps in between to recover.

Coming up towards the end of the month is Pictures... (Yes, this engagement is tied in with me trying to hurry and finish repairing all three of those very beat up early UMI Conn model 20K sousaphones, because the school that owns them and the orchestra venue are both far away from me but close to each other.)

Between my two euphoniums, it's going to be easier to play it on the $100 ugly brown 1970's Yamaha 321. The sound has been somewhat nasal (small shank receiver) but the pitch is a little bit easier to bend in tune for that modal solo, yet some pitches ride sharper than they should with the small shank and the required small shank mouthpiece.

Last night, I decided to get a little bit more serious.
I had a large shank receiver (removed from a cheap/new Chinese tuba that I sold new, whereby I substituted the receiver for a standard shank receiver prior to selling it) in my desk drawer that's been sitting in there for years. It was slightly undersized, but absolutely large shank. I put it on the lathe and bored it out to full large shank size plus a little bit, and then I reverse tapered the so-called "gap" in the back of it so that the exposed part of the receiver would taper outward towards the outward tapering mouthpipe tube, so - by reverse tapering the last 5/32 of an inch of the receiver, I - in reality - "forward tapered" it.

Now that I've put that receiver on the Yamaha, I'm able to use this old Warburton-made mouthpiece (dating back to the pre-Yamaha Canadian Brass years years) which was made for the Canadian Brass line and sold as a bass trombone mouthpiece. In reality, it's a thin rimmed bass trombone/euphonium Helleberg-shaped mouthpiece. This rim is remarkably thin and - after playing high range etudes for a half an hour or so - starts to feel like a cookie cutter... but that's not the fault of the mouthpiece. That is the fault of ME mashing the mouthpiece into my face - due to being tired.

I now feel like I've got the equipment I need to play the solo movement to my own satisfaction.

My daily practice strategy is to play three or four long (probably: Book 2) Rochut exercises on the euphonium with that mouthpiece, and then play three or four long Rochut etudes on the contrabass tuba (which I like for all the other movements, even though Unclebeer is shaking his head.

ACTUALLY, what I just said isn't quite true, because I've decided to cover all the muted passages (a couple of other movements)!with muted euphonium, as corking up a tuba mute for a tuba - which features a bell that's the same size as a Holton 345 bell - is ridiculous, and doesn't particularly sound very muted... so now Unclebeer is at least raising one eyebrow.

After playing those (multipage each) Rochut exercises, I'll probably go back and play through the Mussorgsky piece a couple of times. Maybe, I'll do that whole thing twice a day unless I'm totally exhausted from working (you know: the type of work that generates income or maintains one's property).

Already at this point, I can play through the solo movement three or four times - perhaps five or six - satisfactorily, but I think it's dangerous to go into a situation not being able to play something over and over and over and over and over and over, only being able to play it well a limited number of times.

Finally, even though the 321 carries this (unearned?) reputation for having great intonation, I'm playing the A-sharp (you know, supposedly the "tuning note") in the melody with 2-3 as well as playing the E-natural with that same fingering. Neither sounds stuffy with that alternate, and it flattens both of those pitches down to proper tuning, while leaving the main tuning slide where it needs to be for the rest of that modal melody. As known, there's also a brief accompaniment passage between the two solo passages, whereby there's a low B-natural, and I'm simply pulling the fourth slide out within a half inch of the quick in order to tune that with 2-4.

...so I believe I have all of the obstacles ironed out, and I just need to become more excellent at playing the solo passages. 😐

probably a very controversial sidebar, which may trigger enough people to become the main topic:
There have been endless discussions about double buzzing and what causes it. I'm not willing to debate the following (LOL, other than to disagree with disagreement) because this is something that I have experimented with very extensively, found to be absolutely true, and won't be convinced otherwise...
Yes, it's related to being tired, but it's also related to allowing the lips to touch, because - when we become tired - we tend to close our lips down because it's easier to play with a less open embouchure. When we close our lips down to relieve the pain of tiredness, the lips tend to touch intermittently. When they touch randomly, it breaks the vibration and causes the vibration in the two individual lips to be interfered with and the pitch jumps down to the partial below the one attempting to be played. The lips should never touch, and vibrate as do a pair of oboe or bassoon blades on a double reed...
... so those who recommend a rest in order to eliminate a double buzz vs. those who recommend developing more strength...
BOTH of those groups of people are absolutely correct, but those who believe that the sound produced by brass instrument is produced by the lips bumping against each other - those are the people who are incorrect.
(Yes, when I'm getting tired playing the euphonium in the high range for quite a while, I start getting some intermittent double buzzes, and moving the lips away from each other ALWAYS stops it - 100% of the time.)

Yes, I'm sure that one of my colleagues would be glad to play the solo movement for me, but this might be my last time to play this piece, and I might as well play the whole thing - sink or swim.


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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by MiBrassFS »

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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by the elephant »

I have that coming up again next season (along with Bruckner 4, finally). I play it on an F, but I approach preparation in the same way that you do. Lots of Bordogni up an octave. from the book.

I have to play Fantastique next month… and we are only using one tuba. I *HATE* when they do that, but it is necessary this time around. Our hall has been closed for two years now as the City of Jackson performs a cranial-rectal inversion, getting it mold-free and rebuilding the roof and cranes that hold the shell's "cloud". (I don't want to be in there breathing that crap and worrying that the cloud will crush me to death, so they can take whatever time is needed to make sure these issues are correctly addressed.) Anyway, our planned venue will not have physical space for a 4th bassoon, a second tuba, etc. Lots of the "extras" will be cut for this one performance for this reason: there is nowhere for them to sit.

It is a business, and you do whatever you have to do to pay the bills. Still, playing the piece alone is a lot of extra physical stress on my chops.
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

"2nd tuba" (yeah...it's fun to have a tuba buddy at a gig) on that piece really doesn't add much of anything (at least, that's how bloke sees it).
Two (really fine players) ophicleides...now that would be something pretty cool...and two would be bare minimum.
(We've all heard that "original instruments" Berlioz YouTube video with one ophicleide and one serpent - both: EXCELLENT players).

Memphis is playing the Berlioz the same weekend that I'm playing Pic's out-of-town.

Try the Shallowberger...(??)

Yeah, it will require some getting used to, but (once that has occurred) it's really easy to play that sort off thing (on an F tuba) with it.
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by the elephant »

I have a decent double-high Bb for that run at the end, but I *am* getting older, and the Shallowberger is something I have been fooling around with to help make that secure.

However, more to the point, my F is too big for this, but now I need the weight of two tubas, and I do not want the too-wide sound, so this mouthpiece seems to give me both the color and the weight I want. Using it a lot in my recent work on this piece…
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by MiBrassFS »

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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by Mary Ann »

Ok, enlighten me. What is a Shallowberger?
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

Mary Ann wrote: Sun Oct 12, 2025 5:10 pm Ok, enlighten me. What is a Shallowberger?
...a mouthpiece I designed and market (mostly) for playing F cimbasso

Those things need something shallower than with a smaller throat than most any "tuba" mouthpiece, but even the largest "contrabass trombone" mouthpieces (typically) sound "puny" when used with an F cimbasso. It's tuba length, quite shallow, and the one-piece version features a narrow/asymmetrical 32.3mm opening rim...but there is a threaded-for-rim version for any of our stainless steel rims - ranging in opening size from 32.0mm to 33.5mm.

These are silver plated brass.

They can also be used for high-range F tuba playing or (the small shank version) for playing those really small E-flat tubas (typically 14" bell, 5/8" bore) made in the USA c. a century ago.

My oldest grandchild is fundraising for their Eagle Scout project, and were $300 short.
I got on facebook today, and sold the last two that I had in stock in ten minutes.

This is a demo that I played (using one of them with my B&S F tuba) of "the lick" from near the end of Symphonie Fantastique:
(If you want to hear it, you'll have to fish around to unclick the default mute button. warning: I plays over-and-over, unless you click it away.)


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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by York-aholic »

Symphony fantastic, March to the scaffold: I played that a year or two ago with the university band. “Oh, I’ll bring my small 15” bell York 4+1, that’ll work”

Director at first rehearsal “can you cover the string bass part for the first 1/4 of the piece?”

Ugh.
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

York-aholic wrote: Sun Oct 12, 2025 5:54 pm Symphony fantastic, March to the scaffold: I played that a year or two ago with the university band. “Oh, I’ll bring my small 15” bell York 4+1, that’ll work”

Director at first rehearsal “can you cover the string bass part for the first 1/4 of the piece?”

Ugh.
Is that the one where the tuba parts in the basement and written in 6 flats? That's the one on countered probably 50 years ago. Revelli was conducting and he wanted to play that.
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by the elephant »

York-aholic wrote: Sun Oct 12, 2025 5:54 pm Symphony fantastic, March to the scaffold: I played that a year or two ago with the university band. “Oh, I’ll bring my small 15” bell York 4+1, that’ll work”

Director at first rehearsal “can you cover the string bass part for the first 1/4 of the piece?”

Ugh.
The lick we are discussing is the one after rehearsal 84 in the 5th movement. Here is a copy of all of the low brass parts to fish through.

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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by York-aholic »

No, we only played mvt 4. I could just squeak out the higher notes between 56-59 on my BBb (I never claimed to be a good player) so took my Eb.

Then the double bass part before 52 was a bunch of low Gs. Playable on my Eb but not a ton of power.

Solution: took both horns and quickly switched at 52.
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

There's a cheesy synthesizer version of the orchestral accompaniment (Bydlo) on youtube...OK...It's free... ' can't complain...

I can't find my stereo 1/8" miniature to 1/4" phone jack monaural cable (laptop to guitar amplifier) to practice with.

I found ONE pair of headphones that offers good and enough output (harness broken).
I found ANOTHER pair of headphones that offers enough output (too much bass...probably for listening to hip-hop?)
I found YET ANOTHER pair of headphones that offers just about enough output and OK sound (left channel shorted out)

...sigh.

It's ok...the second and third ones are good enough...and - with the third one - (important) I can completely hear MYSELF.

hey...If I don't suck at the show as good as I'm not sucking here, it should be pretty good. :smilie8:

yeah...I'm sticking with the 50-years-old brown Yamaha 321 with the new (bass shank) receiver I just made for it, and the Warburton/"Canadian Brass" miniature helleberg large shank mouthpiece...and Fat Bastard on everything else (other than the muted passages on the 321).

phrasing on "Promenade"...
Geezus...Don't breath on them there bar lines! :eyes:
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by MiBrassFS »

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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

MiBrassFS wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 4:24 am Have you tried it all using “Fat Bastard” and your “super huge” euphonium? The difference between them may be large enough to make your euphonium feel less huge to you.
I've played through the solo movement a whole bunch of times on both euphoniums. It's just easier to make it clearer sound with the small one, as well as to keep control of the melody throughout the long crescendo in the first presentation of it as well as controlling the diminuendo in the second presentation.
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by MiBrassFS »

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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

I understand Carl's points about the thing originally being played on a C manually compensating baritone with six valves, but it seems to me that it's because that was the instrument that was in the orchestra where Ravel was located and he had no choice in the matter. Those big organ like chords when the piece is transcribed for symphony orchestra are just more pleasing to audiences - with modern-era-grew-up-on-rock-'n'-roll ears - with big wide tuba sounds, I believe.

The third programmatic movement is tacet, and that's plenty of time to put my finger over the end of the Warburton-made Helleberg-like bass trombone mouthpiece that I'm using and (hopefully subtly, without drawing attention to myself) buzz some pitches - also while warming up the ugly brown Yamaha instrument against my fat gut. (I'm not using the Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece. It just doesn't offer enough color in the upper range... I may screw it all up, but the way I hear it played on some recordings, I just don't quite want to sound like those, even though they are well played.)

I'm not getting as much practice time on this as I'd like, but I am running through the entire work and switching back and forth... Including using the muted 321 for the muted passages. (If I gave anything over to one of the trombone players, I would probably give the muted passages in Gnomus over to the bass trombonist.)
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by MiBrassFS »

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Re: training for Mussorgsky

Post by bloke »

MiBrassFS wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 11:39 am Sounds like your plan is in place!

Re French tuba in C. Are any of the French players still employing those anymore? I suppose if some group wants to do an original instruments thing with small bore trombones, etc., but beyond that, I think (know…) I’d pass, too. It’s cool they still exist, though. I also get with enough effort, the right player can make them work.

I hope your concert is recorded and available for posterity.


IF it is (??) - and I'm made aware of it - I'll post a link ONLY if I don't f it up. :laugh:

I just like the fact that I'm going to be paid to have some fun, and my gas to deliver the repaired 20K's will be covered.

My understanding is that the French - by 1950 or so - no longer considered those to be their go-to orchestral tubas.
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Re: training for Mussorgsky

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