How do I learn about mouthpieces?

[jtm]

The end result question is really "how can I find the mouthpiece that works best for me on this tuba?," but I might as well learn a little along the way.

I see comments about how different shapes can do different things for the sound and response, but, to be honest, I have a hard time looking at the inside of a mouthpiece and discerning whether it's a bowl or a funnel or a hybrid, and it's also hard to judge the depth. The only things easy to measure are the rim diameter and width.

Are there tips to judge the shape? Are there guides that say which mouthpieces have which dimensions? I have three to compare right now, and they seem pretty similar, so that's not much help.

Ideally, I would go visit a player who has a 30 different ones to try and compare, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

[donn]

Right, so the only thing for it is to start collecting your own 30.

There's really no way around it. If you could go to a shop and try them, that would certainly be informative, but you'd be pretty lucky to get enough experience with them to make a good long term commitment. I've had experiences where a mouthpiece that seemed like the ticket in the practice room was not so great in action. Dimensions are often imaginary - if you try to measure the inside diameter of a mouthpiece cup, maybe you'll see what I mean, there isn't any exact edge, and any published width figure is based on some arbitrary choice there - yet people get very serious about a hair's breadth difference in width. Rims are unquantifiable, depth is another arbitrary measurement. You can often get a throat diameter, but its acoustic significance depends on other factors.

One classic strategy is to start with the most popular mouthpieces, if you don't already have them, since they've worked for so many people. There isn't really any such thing as a student tuba mouthpiece, the Bach 18 / Conn Helleberg / etc. classics are just great mouthpieces. Faxx copies are fine, or Kelly plastic.

On the bright side, most mouthpieces are good enough for some great tuba playing.

Oh yeah, online reference for dimensions: Tuba Mouthpiece Guide

As for bowl, funnel or hybrid - they're all hybrids, with a couple of very unusual exceptions. Conn's tuba mouthpiece designs do run a little more conical than anyone else's I've seen so far, though.

[sdloveless]

The end result question is really "how can I find the mouthpiece that works best for me on this tuba?," but I might as well learn a little along the way.

I had this very same conversation with my private instructor this last Monday. His opinion was to play short excerpts from pieces you're comfortable with. Basically, start with the horn and a few mouthpieces. Play an excerpt on each mouthpiece. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Mary Ann]

Unfortunately it's an expensive (usually) path. You have to have one for long enough to figure out what it does and doesn't do for you, and then get one that is decidedly different and look at the same things. Then maybe one in the middle, and with what mouthpieces cost, that can really add up. That's why you'll see people with a bunch of mouthpieces for sale that aren't the ones that work for them. If I were in your shoes, I'd talk to someone who makes tuba mouthpieces, see what he (I don't think there are any female mouthpiece makers) recommends for your particular tuba, and start there. Some tubas are more mouthpiece sensitive than others, and some people are more mouthpiece sensitive than others. I have a horn-playing friend who is extremely rim sensitive....I can't tell the difference between two rims that have major differences for him. So good luck, basically, and if you can, find someone who already has that box of mouthpieces and will let you try them. You'd think your prof would be able to do that, but, maybe not.

[Pauvog1]

Experience is really the only way to learn the mouthpiece game. No different than finding an instrument that works well for you.

[jtm]

I love Mary Ann’s current profile picture. It’s so cheerful.

Thanks for the suggestions; I’m not surprised that some time will be involved. I’ll keep an eye on the for-sale listings.

My collection right now consists of a Bach 18, a no-name Helleberg, and a Blokepiece Symphony, on a mid-size old German C tuba. All three seem pretty decent with that tuba. The Symphony sounds a little darker with a strong low end. What might be a useful next mouthpiece to look for?

I do have a teacher now, occasionally, but I’ve only had Skype lessons so far, so I’m not trying his mouthpieces right away.

[Pauvog1]

I love Mary Ann’s current profile picture. It’s so cheerful.

Thanks for the suggestions; I’m not surprised that some time will be involved. I’ll keep an eye on the for-sale listings.

My collection right now consists of a Bach 18, a no-name Helleberg, and a Blokepiece Symphony, on a mid-size old German C tuba. All three seem pretty decent with that tuba. The Symphony sounds a little darker with a strong low end. What might be a useful next mouthpiece to look for?

I do have a teacher now, occasionally, but I’ve only had Skype lessons so far, so I’m not trying his mouthpieces right away.

What are you wanting different? Brighter tone? Darker tone? Different rim? More/less open. I generally don't add to the herd without a specific goal in mind.

I wonder if a blokepiece imperial might not be a neat addition. I've had one for years and have recently enjoyed experimenting with it and different depths options.

[lost]

Generally the more expensive the mouthpiece, the better they will work. Just kidding. I agree with Donn. Get out and try them and you will learn a lot. There is no right one to use. There is only the right one for you and your horn.

[Mary Ann]

I love Mary Ann’s current profile picture. It’s so cheerful.

Sometimes you just need a Rainbow Butterfly Unicorn Kitten! (I stole that pic off Facebook...no idea whose artistry that is, but I love it!)

[jtm]

For future readers, after Mary Ann changes pictures, the current picture looks like this (without the caption)

[bloke]

Try 'em...and either keep 'em or send 'em back.

It's pretty cool to be able to compare three or four of them...but it's even more cool to know enough (about the ones lined up to compare) to compare three or four very similar ones, rather than three of four epically dissimilar ones.

[Heavy_Metal]

A couple things that I've found useful:

1- The rim diameter should be as big as you can handle. This way, more of your lip muscle is within the rim, so the work of buzzing is spread across more muscle, and your lips aren't forced together which makes it easier to move air through them. Both factors increased my endurance. Every player's facial structure is different, so what works for one person may not suit someone else.

Bach published a mouthpiece manual that goes into more detail on these, and I may have a copy somewhere.

2- Buy used mouthpieces (in good condition) if you're comfortable doing so, to keep the cost down. If you do, clean them well before trying them.

Let us know how you make out.

[Heavy_Metal]

duplicate- not sure how to delete...............

[Stryk]

Ideally, I would go visit a player who has a 30 different ones to try and compare, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

Most good teachers have many various quality mouthpieces for students to try. Some aficionados have a good supply. In these COVID times, it may be hard to find someone willing to share.

[bloke]

Mouthpieces are both tactile and sonic.
I have no idea how many more years I have left of good quality playing, and I believe it has taken me too d@mn long to figure out what sorts of things I should be listening for, and how a rim should feel on my face. I’ve learned those things, but I sure wish I had learned them about 40 years ago.
Candidly, I found something that I think works pretty nicely with the funny little Holton BBb tuba I’m building, and it’s not one of my own cups. I’m not stupid enough to say (here nor anywhere else) what it is. That having been said, it’s a typical one-piece mouthpiece, and its rim stinks.
In conclusion to this enlightening post - which everyone is reading with great interest , a mouthpiece is not something that is stuck into an instrument; a mouthpiece is part of an instrument. Every one of my tubas features a different mouthpiece.

[jtm]

... That having been said, it’s a typical one-piece mouthpiece, and its rim stinks.

So, you’ll turn it to get a rim you like on the cup that works?

[Robert Tucci]

This is not new but provides adequate information of a basic nature.

RIM: The rim of the mouthpiece supports the lips and defines how much of their area is free to vibrate. The greater the area able to vibrate the greater the flexibility with which the lips may be changed from one frequency of vibration to another.

CUP WIDTH: Increasing the diameter of the mouthpiece has the added result of making the entire instrument flatter in pitch, reducing resonance in the higher register and making the tone fuller but more somber. These characteristics are not primarily caused by the enlarged diameter but by the increased volume thus created.

CUP DEPTH: The same results follow from making the cup deeper, though they may to some extent be mitigated by enlarging the backbore. This increases the fullness of tone while sharpening all but the lowest notes, giving more resonance in the higher register and less in the middle.

THROAT: Enlarging the throat gives much the same results as increasing the volume, except that the decreased resonance is noticeable over much more of the compass while the upper register becomes both sharper and more difficult to ”fill” owing to to the diminished resistance to the air-stream. Lengthening the throat flattens the upper register and gives more resistance in this part of the compass. It also increases resonance in the middle and low registers but overall may give a smaller, brighter sound.

SHELL: The walls of the cup reflect tonal energy. Thin walls provide fast response but are generally inefficient as less sound is reflected into the instrument. Response at low dynamics is good but the sound becomes bright very fast as volume is increased.  Extremely heavy shells result in stiff response and sound monotone in character.  The shells of of our (Robert Tucci) mouthpieces are optimized for tonal splendor, evenness and projection in all registers.

BACKBORE: Variations in this area affect resistance and response as well as intonation, tone color and dynamic range.

Bob Tucci

[Three Valves]

You have to have one for long enough to figure out what it does and doesn't do for you.

If you can't identify what you don't like about your current one, don't go looking for a different one.

Chances are, it won't make you sound better or your playing easier. But it may, MAY, make you feel better.

Mouthpieces. Life. Whichever.

[matt g]

Every one of my tubas features a different mouthpiece.

I was lucky enough to stumble upon this concept relatively young.

Every time I bought a new tuba, a new mouthpiece was sought out. I’d have a general direction to head in, but cup shape/volume and throat/backbore design all seem to need to be matched to the horn. Only the rim contour (primary) and diameter (secondary) need to be player specific.

This is also why I would hesitate on judging a horn thoroughly with only a single mouthpiece. The stuffy low register one may find with a big volume mouthpiece might magically disappear with a smaller cup with a different shape.

OP, there’s also some good general information on cup shapes and their effects on playing characteristics on the internet. Stork is one source. There are also some horn forums that delve into this as well and how certain cup shapes work better with certain horn wraps and bell designs.

[kingrob76]

Bob Tucci's post in this thread is an excellent starting point of reference.

I used to wonder why bowlers would show up at bowling alleys with 2 or more bowling balls until I learned they each have different performance characteristics in different situations. One ball was appropriate for certain lane conditions and shots, another ball would be better suited for different conditions and types of shots. When I was an avid league bowler, I brought 3 16-pound bowling balls with me each night.

It's all about pairing the right tool with the right equipment for the right job.

Certain mouthpieces work great with certain instruments and not so well with others. When I was in college in the late 80's I experimented a lot with Doug Elliot's modular system and found that was a great learning point. I would swap out various cup sizes depending on the work I was doing in school, shallower things for lighter playing and bigger things for broader playing. The characteristic of the sound changed even though the rim and instrument were the same, and the shanks were comparable. Everything worked great in my Cerveny Piggy. When I sold my Piggy and got a 188, the Elliott stuff just didn't feel "right" to me in that instrument so I looked at other things and ideas.

I settled on a Deck 3, which for that 188 was a match made in heaven. Dave Fedderly once told me he didn't care for the 188's in general (a long time ago) but that mouthpiece just worked on my horn. The Deck 3 was a staple for me until I owned a Miraphone 1291. For me, I needed something that added a little more color to that horn than the Deck 3 did, and I settled on a Giddings Baer MMVI. Very different mouthpiece, but, right tool for that job.

If I seem like I'm wandering all over the place, it's not by accident :-) The engineering side of mouthpieces is quantifiable, measurable, and thus defensible when making assertions. But the rest of it is completely subjective and will come down to some trial and error no matter the situation. Like the bowling balls, having a few you're comfortable with will help you find the right handshake for the instrument you're playing in a given situation.

I highly recommend the modular mouthpiece systems to help build a baseline and a frame of reference as a starting point. Looking over to my left I see about 25 mouthpiece that exist in one of two categories for me - things I like and work in my current horns, and things I've liked in the past that might be useful down the road. I've sold a bunch of stuff that I could never find a good fit for me or were just redundant and I've only regretted it once (and I've sold multiple dozens of mouthpieces).

Lastly, don't get too caught up in a mouthpiece based on what you've read or been told. I've bought things that I was SURE would be perfect for me based on size / shape / material / marketing / word of mouth and could never make work. It really does come down to trial and error, but there are ways to be smart about it an learn what works for you.