Bach suites at pitch on CC or BBb?

[BopEuph]

Just curious if there are recordings of anyone doing this. Part of my quest to really get tuba chops up is to be able to play through the suites at pitch on BBb. I did this every day on euphonium in college, which was probably a huge part of my chop building. Obviously, doing this on BBb is a lot of work, and it sounds awful right now.

I did play through an arrangement of the first suite in Db, and obviously laid better on tuba. But it got me thinking: how realistic am I being for really trying to put these suites, at pitch, on BBb tuba?

Has anyone done it successfully? Recordings?

[BopEuph]

I thought about doing them down an octave; and I might still try, but I always approached them trying to emulate the cello as much as possible. Even feeling good at them down an octave, it just doesn't feel like something you'd do outside of the practice room...it almost sounds like a facetious performance to me. I guess the challenge then would be to make it sound like serious literature again. But there's a purity of the suites I really love in the original range.

I do, however, mess around with the Vivaldi Cello Sonatas down an octave, and they're really fun in that range, and a great workout, especially the 2nd movement of the A minor one--lots of big jumps.

I guess I just hear Eb/F guys sound great at pitch, and wish I could still do that. I don't own a euph anymore, so can't satisfy my wants to play the suites on that.

[tubanh84]

On a BBb tuba, I would play them down the octave. A middle C on tuba *sounds* a lot higher than a middle C on cello. To me. The high notes, when played on cello, grow in intensity as they get higher, but they never (to me) *sound* high. On a BBb tuba, the G above middle C will sound high, not intense, at the peak of the 1st movement of the 1st suite when played at pitch. Down an octave, you can achieve the intensity while avoiding sounding high.

They work at pitch on euphonium for precisely that reason - The pitches are lower in the instrument's harmonic series, and so they don't sound as high.

[BopEuph]

Good point; I guess I just really would like to work on my high range so that it does sound effortless. The suites probably aren't it, and there's probably little that can be done once you get to the F above middle C. That's when the tone quality of the horn just gets too unpleasant.

One of these days, I'll have a bass horn.

[Doc]

Good point; I guess I just really would like to work on my high range so that it does sound effortless. The suites probably aren't it, and there's probably little that can be done once you get to the F above middle C. That's when the tone quality of the horn just gets too unpleasant.

One of these days, I'll have a bass horn.

But the suites are, if nothing else, a nice diversion from scales/arpeggios/exercises when working on high range. When I was in school, I worked on these playing CC. About a month ago, I bought a new copy so I can revisit them. Without thinking, grabbed the F tuba. Because of the range/voicing, it just seemed natural. Started in on the first movement of the first suite (and a favorite of mine and many others) Of course, deficiencies in my range and technique were immediately and glaringly apparent (sounded like crap; well, more like cold chicken$#!+ on a stale cracker). I tried it on the 186CC and the Hagen BBb, and I wasn't hindered much (but that's not saying much ).

Yeah, yeah... F or Eb can be easier in some ways, but if I didn't own an F tuba, I would not be discouraged. If your high G and upper range is not consistently solid because you haven't built those skills (or those skills have lost their luster from inattention), choice of tuba for the suites is nearly irrelevant. If your high range is solid and dependable, choice of tuba becomes about other factors.

If my high range was as solid as I wanted, I'd likely play/perform the suites on F tuba (cello), as playing CC or BBb, at least to me, is like double bass. But if all I had was a big tuba, I'd still go John Daly* on it. Conversely, when I actually get time to practice my high range, it's done on BBb - If I can do it on BBb, F tuba ought to come a little easier.

*grip it and rip it

Doc (embracing the suck with every key of tuba)

[BopEuph]

Ha!

Good points all around. It seems weird to have to start the same journey I did nearly 20 years ago from the beginning again...but maybe that's more of a blessing than a curse.

Then again, like @tubanh84 said, the higher pitches "sound" high. Though, I would love to get nice, pure tones in that upper range. Maybe I can justify never having to blow extra money for a bass horn...then again, that Besson @bloke's selling is mighty nice...If it's around long enough...

[Doc]

Ha!

Good points all around. It seems weird to have to start the same journey I did nearly 20 years ago from the beginning again...but maybe that's more of a blessing than a curse.

You can choose which perspective you'd like to have with that.

Then again, like @tubanh84 said, the higher pitches "sound" high. Though, I would love to get nice, pure tones in that upper range. Maybe I can justify never having to blow extra money for a bass horn...then again, that Besson @bloke's selling is mighty nice...If it's around long enough...

There have been a couple of Eb's that have nearly caused me to cross over. One was a sweet silver Packer 3+1. The other was a really nice PT-22. Thankfully, I don't have the money for a "real Besson" 983 right now. But maybe you can get it and keep it in the family.

[Doc]

This makes me want to stop on the river bridge and throw all my $#!+ over the side:

[Dan Tuba]

I have been working on some of the Bach Cello suites on my large BBb. Here's an excerpt from my practice session a few weeks ago. I hope to eventually get some of these performance ready. If not, they are great practice. Very difficult to achieve the finesse, nuance, and phrasing in the lower octave.
https://youtu.be/LTTRkfoC8L4

[MN_TimTuba]

This makes me want to stop on the river bridge and throw all my $#!+ over the side:

Yeah, it wasn't so bad until that smug little look into the camera at the end....
Of course, if I could play so well I'd feel a bit smug myself.
Tim

[Doc]

I have been working on some of the Bach Cello suites on my large BBb. Here's an excerpt from my practice session a few weeks ago. I hope to eventually get some of these performance ready. If not, they are great practice. Very difficult to achieve the finesse, nuance, and phrasing in the lower octave.
https://youtu.be/LTTRkfoC8L4

I neglected to mention that they are worthy of dropping down, but what you stated is true (difficult in many areas, but very beneficial). I always thought that if you can get the air (flow and volume) working decently down low, it sure seems to help when you play the ink. Kinda like playing Bordogni down an octave or two.

[BopEuph]

I mean, if we're talking about at pitch, there's always this performance of Jon Fletcher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fDuxAlxkM

But yeah, good point at playing an octave down. Kinda like Arnold Jacobs said: taking things into a better register for tuba might not necessarily be good for performance, but good musical and phrasing practice.

I used to have a half dozen or so movements kept up and in my back pocket on euphonium just in case someone asked me to play something with short notice (that and Fnugg, which laid very well on euph). The "back pocket" things on tuba are more grooves, but with my chops getting more and more able, I'm hoping to do more legit stuff and treat the tuba like I used to with euph...with the added benefit that I could lay down a Duck (or Jamerson) bassline, as well as playing changes.

[Doc]

I mean, if we're talking about at pitch, there's always this performance of Jon Fletcher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3fDuxAlxkM

But yeah, good point at playing an octave down. Kinda like Arnold Jacobs said: taking things into a better register for tuba might not necessarily be good for performance, but good musical and phrasing practice.

I used to have a half dozen or so movements kept up and in my back pocket on euphonium just in case someone asked me to play something with short notice (that and Fnugg, which laid very well on euph).

You've done much better than me. I didn't work on or bother to keep up a lot of things like that over the years. I could probably go out and do Beelzebub on short notice, but I'm not sure that's something to brag about. Ya done good! Don't let it slip. That way you don't have those woulda-coulda-shoulda/regret-sucks revelations later in life.

The "back pocket" things on tuba are more grooves, but with my chops getting more and more able, I'm hoping to do more legit stuff and treat the tuba like I used to with euph...with the added benefit that I could lay down a Duck (or Jamerson) bassline, as well as playing changes.

Having legendary bass lines in your pocket... with grooves like that, those pockets have to be heavy corduroy!

[BopEuph]

Ha! I also forgot to mention:

I played two movements of the first suite for Janos Starker in a masterclass when I was a sophomore. I was talking to him about any setbacks the euphonium might have vs. playing on cello (especially the arpeggiated chords). He seemed to love the idea of the suites on euphonium, and that there was a major benefit of playing on a wind instrument vs. a string instrument: breaths forces you to think about phrasing more.

I should dig that recording out...it's buried here somewhere.

To be honest, I had no clue how big a name Starker was when I did it. My teacher told me I had the biggest steel pair in the brass world for pulling that, and Starker was a much bigger name than anyone in the tuba world. I don't know, I was just some ignorant 20 year-old who wanted to show off for a cello player.

The funniest memory about that day: Starker lit up a cigarette while on stage of FSU's Opperman Hall. Nobody wanted to tell him there was no smoking in the building, so he just kept going.

[bort2.0]

This makes me want to stop on the river bridge and throw all my $#!+ over the side:

Yeah, it wasn't so bad until that smug little look into the camera at the end....
Of course, if I could play so well I'd feel a bit smug myself.
Tim

1) Smug, indeed.
2) The camera work was quite distracting

I didn't watch closely (again, camera work...) but is this the same Rudy F with a million valves and triggers that he used on the Moto Perpetuo video? A crazy talented player, but FFS, could he just be happy with 5 valves?

[donn]

The guy has a hell of a wine cellar, too. Maybe that's what that look is about, at the end.

To be sure, at the very best rate of improvement I won't live long enough to be half that good, but ... even a bass tuba is a bass instrument, and it should shine down at the bottom. As a listener, I think the payoff to listening to a tuba on this would be more likely with some re-arranging of the notes to suit the instrument, and played an octave down. As in the other example above. Taking it up to the original octave doesn't fully solve the problem with those low notes. The tuba is very different from a violoncello, you don't just have that C string there to pop off from the cellar, and I will dare to say that the excellent performance above illustrates the point - if he doesn't get anything real glorious when he bounces down there, heaven help the rest of us.

[Three Valves]

...could he just be happy with 5 valves?

Or fewer??

[Snake Charmer]

For a solo piece it is worth trying to find a key which works for the instrument you want to use. In this case I would play it a fourth or fifth lower or what else is comfortable to play. There is no need keeping the "original" key, J.S.Bach would approve...
He did not know the tuba and I don't know what he would have written or it. Maybe nothing at all like for the well-known trombone, which he didn't count as a musical instrument, because in Germany trombone players were in a different guild than musicians. They were counted as administrative employees back then, same as gate-keepers or night-watchmen (and now for revenge all the trombone choirs play Bach!).
Playing a piece in a very exponated register (high or low doesn't matter) is a nice(?) show-off but in the most cases not very musically. We should try to give credits to the piece we play and not to our ego. And sometimes we may find a piece that is very nice but will not work on our horns.