Besson Eb compensators...

[greenbean]

I see a lot of Besson Eb compensating tubas around. They seem to be widely used in the UK and maybe Europe in general. Some are Sovereigns and are a bit pricey and others are Imperial are quite a bit less so. (And maybe there are others.) Most of the ones I see are 3+1 compensators. Bell range from 15" to 19," I think. And some were made by Boosey & Hawkes.

What is the story on these?... Thanks!

[bloke]

I'd recommend keeping your eyes peeled for a used Jinbao for $1000 - $1500, to use to get your feet wet.
If it makes you smile, you might consider selling it for the same $$$$, saving up some mo' money, and buying a used English-made one or a German-made on or a JP (which - in my view is absolutely as good as the English and German ones, and sells at two price points - yellow-brass/utility case, and high-copper brass/fancy-schmancy case).

Any of those three will be noticably better than a Jinbao, but a Jinbao is NOT bad and will give you a GOOD idea whether it's something that YOU wish to pursue, and - again - if you're shrewd, you can pass on the Jinbao for at least what you paid for it - without losing money, if you either decide to walk away from the comp-E-flat world or to delve deeper into it.

To me the 19" bell ones are "fake" BB-flat tubas (and work VERY WELL as "fake" BB-flat tubas...which is why I snagged my rare 22" RECORDING bell 1958-made one for use in jazz bands)...but - you're looking for more of a biggish BASS tuba, the (long discontinued) Yamaha YEB-631 (17") is an instrument that I REALLY like (and I do NOT like ANY of the Yamaha 19"-bell ones).

If you were to eventually decide that you're really looking for an honest-to-goodness authentic British brass band compensating E-flat tuba, (as many of the ORIGINAL 15" bell instruments (which I consider to be THE authentic ones) are either beat up, feature worn valves, feature both of those things, are "high pitch", or are ALL THREE of those things...
The Yamaha YEB-321 15" BELL (which can be bought from Yamaha...though the back-order is typically several months) is an accurate copy of a Besson/B&H 15" bell, and (I believe this to be true) should fit into the bottom bow of most of the Besson and Besson-like compensating E-flat tubas.

For MOST tuba playing, there is no easier tuba to play than a GOOD compensating E-flat.
For THAT reason, I've steered several low brass instructors at universities (trombonists, who found they were expected to teach the tuba students) towards compensating E-flat tubas. The learning curve is not-very-curved, and they soon view themselves (based on their success with these) as "quite fine *tuba-ists". They do SEEM to be that...as long as they stick with their compensating E-flats.
_______________________________________
*I can play oldies in my garage band with my old buddies on electric bass, so SURELY there can't be much more to playing an upright bass (etc.)

[LargeTuba]

I have a wessex champion with a 19 inch bell. I think it's pretty good. It works very well with a small ensemble I play with. I find the low range very stuffy (really any 4th valve combination). So ultimately I think I'm going to make the change to 5v non comp, or try out a besson. The wessex Gnagey I tried was amazing. It uses the same body that the other compensators use so it has a very similar sound but without the personal issues I mentioned.

Obviosuly YMMV.

[GC]

The big difference with the Gnagey Eb, though, is that it's part of the 4 piston 1 rotor world, not the compensating world. It's whatever floats your boat. If you're used to a 5-valve CC or BBb, this may work better for you. I prefer compensating horns because the low register fingerings are simpler, and at my age I confuse easily (yeah, right, blame the age . . . ). I just live with the low-register stuffiness.

After 2 years with a JP377 compensating Eb, I'm very content with it. I might yet buy an inexpensive small BBb for concert band work, but I don't see any reason to leave the 377 as my main instrument.

[greenbean]

Thanks for the input, guys. I am probably heading in the 5v non-comp direction but we will see what turns up.

There is one horn that I don't really understand. The 4-valve Yamaha 321 Eb. Why no 5th valve?

[LeMark]

They made the 381 with a 5th valve, but it was only a long Half step, so still not fully chromatic. That was a mistake

[bloke]

I converted one of those 381 tubas (to whole step), and sold it to a college teacher‘s student at one of the Army conferences.
(I’m currently building myself a BB-flat with a long HALF step fifth valve, but E-flat tuba wise, low E natural is too high of a pitch to omit from a tuba.)

I just haven’t encountered very many of the five valve non-compensating E-flat tubas that offer easy intonation. It’s odd how the 3+1 compensating ones - so often - are fairly easy to play in tune. This is a broad statement, and there are exceptions. The Willson is pretty darn good, but also it’s pretty darn vanilla, and pretty darn expensive.

[marccromme]

I just haven’t encountered very many of the five valve non-compensating E-flat tubas that offer easy intonation. It’s odd how the 3+1 compensating ones - so often - are fairly easy to play in tune. This is a broad statement, and there are exceptions. The Willson is pretty darn good, but also it’s pretty darn vanilla, and pretty darn expensive.

The MW 2141 FA 5 valve non compensating has an easy acessible 4th valve slide, the only one that needs pulling for very good intonation. Very nice low range, too. I prefer it over any EB compensator I have tried so far, possibly with exception of the 17" bell Sovereign, which is really nice too.

But essentially it boils down to habit and knowing your instrument well to play in tune. A good instrument definitively helps. ..

[marccromme]

There is one horn that I don't really understand. The 4-valve Yamaha 321 Eb. Why no 5th valve?

The target market is school bands and marching bands, so its cheaper and lighter as is. A 5th valve adds complexity, wich will not be beneficial for many young students, nor would they know what to use it for.

Heck, one of my 66 year old band members playing for decades a Yamaha 5 valve F tuba did not believe me when I pointed out that his 24 F sharp is way too sharp without pulling slides, and a better alternative would be 235 without pulling. It made a bad clash with the EB tubas F sharp with 23. Also his 14 Bb was very unpleasant clashing with our Eb tuba 4 Bb. It took me hours to convince him that 45 Bb is better in tune.

[bloke]

The B-flat tuba that I am building (thread in the repairs forum) might well annoy the hell out of a section of (non-comp) 4-valve B-flat players in a community band, because my fifth valve is tuned to be a substitute for the second valve when playing B-naturals and low E-naturals, so anytime those two pitches would occur, they would be playing them with valves 2 and 4, and I would be much flatter...unless - of course - I rode sharp with them, and used valves 2 and 4, in spite of having a better alternative.

[greenbean]

I can pick up one of those Yamaha 321 Eb's pretty cheap. Perhaps I could have a plug-in 5th valve made to use with it. A flat whole step, just like the 4th-valve-dependent plug-in 5th valve my Yamaha 321 euphonium has. Would the intonation be workable, do you think?

[bloke]

I can pick up one of those Yamaha 321 Eb's pretty cheap. Perhaps I could have a plug-in 5th valve made to use with it. A flat whole step, just like the 4th-valve-dependent plug-in 5th valve my Yamaha 321 euphonium has. Would the intonation be workable, do you think?

The 381 model worked out pretty well with the 5th slide (aftermarket) elongated, but Yamaha didn’t manage to figure out a way to mount their 5th rotor on a slide that could be removed,
- as they did for the 321 euphonium.

By the time someone acquired a decent 321 E-flat, removed dents, I had it cleaned, and then paid somebody to attach a fifth valve and nice working lever to it, I could see them having about the same amount of money invested as a used, UK era, nicely-in-tune 3+1.

[LeMark]

The only way I would install a dependant rotor was if I was in a tuba that had a really good in tune 2-4 combination. On my cerveny tubas, 2-4 is sharp, so for longer notes I use 2-3-5, which helps a lot.

[Estubist]

The only way I would install a dependant rotor was if I was in a tuba that had a really good in tune 2-4 combination. On my cerveny tubas, 2-4 is sharp, so for longer notes I use 2-3-5, which helps a lot.

My CBB 686-4B has got a trigger at the 2nd Slide instead a 5 valve. It works.

[marccromme]

The only way I would install a dependant rotor was if I was in a tuba that had a really good in tune 2-4 combination. On my cerveny tubas, 2-4 is sharp, so for longer notes I use 2-3-5, which helps a lot.

Yessir !

[Furguson11]

The only way I would install a dependant rotor was if I was in a tuba that had a really good in tune 2-4 combination. On my cerveny tubas, 2-4 is sharp, so for longer notes I use 2-3-5, which helps a lot.

My CBB 686-4B has got a trigger at the 2nd Slide instead a 5 valve. It works.

Huh... I wonder if something like that would work on my 683? It would seem to be a fairly simple mod vs another rotor.

[bloke]

Slide triggers rely on perfectly-aligned slides.

IF (??) a #2 slide assembly is not absolutely perfectly aligned, it is the MOST DIFFICULT to correct, as (rotary valve tubas) #2 slide tubes are completely "locked" into place - as they are completely soldered up to other tubes.

[Estubist]

The only way I would install a dependant rotor was if I was in a tuba that had a really good in tune 2-4 combination. On my cerveny tubas, 2-4 is sharp, so for longer notes I use 2-3-5, which helps a lot.

My CBB 686-4B has got a trigger at the 2nd Slide instead a 5 valve. It works.

Huh... I wonder if something like that would work on my 683? It would seem to be a fairly simple mod vs another rotor.

It's standard Equipment of this model.
But here in Germany many brass and repair shops offer similar constructions for older Instruments.

[ole_irgens]

I see a lot of Besson Eb compensating tubas around. They seem to be widely used in the UK and maybe Europe in general. Some are Sovereigns and are a bit pricey and others are Imperial are quite a bit less so. (And maybe there are others.) Most of the ones I see are 3+1 compensators. Bell range from 15" to 19," I think. And some were made by Boosey & Hawkes.

What is the story on these?... Thanks!

As a European tubaist I can try to explain.... The brass band tradition is very strong in Europe, especially in the UK, but also in my own country of Norway. This tradition calls for a tuba section consisting of two Ebs and two Bbs, both compensated, preferrably Besson, but Yamaha has taken a bit of this market as the English tubas have been somewhat... uneven in their production quality.

This tradition has also been taken up by wind/concert bands, where we have both Bb and Eb tubas, but also the odd Cc tuba (me), which IMHO is a nice and versatile instrument for the big settings, apart from the flurry of intonation issues of course, but that makes life just a wee bit more interesting.

I have a Besson Eb for my brass band rehearsals, and it is a sweet horn, intonation is quite good, but it is so light compared to my tank built JP Cc, maybe half the weight. Treble clef notation is driving me crazy though, so maybe I will use the Cc in both bands. (The sacrilege of using a Cc instead of a Eb (or Bb) in a brass band has been discussed previously in this (or the previous) group, but please... another round might be interesting.)

Peace out!

[greenbean]

Thanks so much, Ole! Is it correct that BBb and Eb tuba parts are written in Treble clef for brass band ? Ugh...

And... Do you happen to know what your Besson Eb weighs?...