Rant on musicality

[tubanh84]

Instead of hijacking another thread (the solo adjudication thread), I thought I should dump my thoughts here. Because I've been listening to a lot of Roger Bobo's old recordings, and it's increasingly clear that he was the most musical tuba player of his era, and I haven't heard anyone come close since, either.

I had the opportunity to do the Domaine Forget program in Quebec back when he was one of the instructors (along with Lance Nagels, another wonderful player and teacher). At the time, my primary teacher was a long-time Arnold Jacobs student, and so our focus was almost exclusively on tone production, with everything else flowing from that. The desired tone was as full and resonant as possible. Not in and of itself a bad thing, for sure. I wouldn't be half the player I became without that foundation.

But in Mr. Bobo's daily masterclasses, he focused on everything but an ideal tone it seemed. The exercises he taught improved flexibility, dynamic range and control, varied articulation, and varied tone. One of the discussions he gave was on varied tone - His criticism of euphoniums and British Eb tubas (said as he was sitting next to Mr. Nagels, who played a British Eb....) were that they always made a pretty sound, and sometimes you didn't want that.

And if you listen to his recordings, it all comes through. His tone is varied. His articulations are varied. His flexibility remains unmatched. So he is able to play the music on a tuba, rather than playing the tuba. I've heard a lot of players executing Very Good Tuba Playing, but I've yet to hear someone get to Mr. Bobo's level of musicality *almost* in spite of the tuba.*

So the point is that it's possible to do. It's obviously hard, because it's so rare to hear, but it is possible. And I think we need to talk about musical nuance earlier and more often than we generally do. We spent so much time on breathing and tone, and everything else gets lost. And it's easy to do, because if you can get through a piece with a resonant tone, it will never be considered a "bad" performance, and you'll get good feedback.


*Disagreeing with myself here - Carol Jantsch comes damn close. Her solo playing is the closest I've heard to Mr. Bobo's musicality and freedom on the instrument.

[Dan Tuba]

Roger Bobo is truly one of a kind. Just an unbelievable "musician." However, I think that many great tuba players/musicians/soloists have emerged since Roger Bobo. Some of favorites are:
Øystein Baadsvik, Roland Szentpáli, Patrick Sheridan, Carol Jantsch, James Gourlay, Aaron Tindal, Les Neish, Velvet Brown, and many more

The one thing that still stands out to me about Roger Bobo's performances/recordings etc is his sound. It's a distinctly unique sound concept. I really enjoy listening to his recordings/performances. However, it seems that the great artists that have emerged since Roger Bobo, many whom were trained/taught or influenced by his concept/approach have developed their own unique voice/sound. To my ears, this is a good thing. To my ears, I hear just as much skill, nuance, and finesse. I'm not saying that Roger Bobo's sound concept/approach needed any development/refinement, however what I am saying is that Roger Bobo was/is not only a great performer, he was/is a master teacher. Today, many of his students are some of the best tuba players/musicians in the world and they all have their own unique sound/voice. There are also quite a few amazing players/musicians who certainly were/are impacted/influenced by his many performances/recordings. You can certainly, at times, hear a little Roger Bobo in their performances/recordings.

[tubanh84]

The one thing that still stands out to me about Roger Bobo's performances/recordings etc is his sound. It's a distinctly unique sound concept.

I agree about his sound. It's like singing, though - No one will ever have his sound, just like even great tenors will never sound like Pavarotti or Bjorling, who don't sound like each other. And if you listen to Mr. Bobo talk, you can hear his tuba sound. The point being that a great deal of sound is unique to a person's physicality, and all anyone can do is maximize their natural sound. Says I. Who went into law and is only a very committed amateur.

I agree there are other great players, and Mr. Bobo champions many of them. And they are, in fact, great. But he's one of a kind. All I'm saying is that I think IN GENERAL, we don't teach nuanced musicality as much as other instrumentalists, and that should change.

[bloke]

I’ve always wondered how a 25-year-old Roger Bobo would do in today’s orchestral auditions.
Of course, he would execute all of the excerpts perfectly – which no one else would do, but with all of the also-rans delivering the same very bland type of resonance, I wonder if his solo/singing resonance would “shock/scare” a committee into picking one of the all-the-sames who played “good enough“.

[Dan Tuba]

I'm not convinced that nuanced musicality isn't taught. I think that it has more to do with the ability/attention to detail to convey the nuanced musicality through the ever growing size of our instruments.

[bloke]

Phrasing is probably slightly easier to understand/imagine when delivering words...but those people have more trouble delivering their "intuitive phrasing" on pitch, don't they?

A whole bunch of people here know about a very influential French/American oboist - who founded the American school of oboe playing (notice, not an actual "school"...only 'muricuhn" is capitalized).

Not only did he teach a more flute-like (rather than a European trumpet-like sound concept), but he designed a way of trimming/shaving reeds that would deliver that concept.

...but the thing that he also did was to come up with a mechanical way to teach musical phrasing (particularly helpful for students who had played in high school bands - most of his students - and hadn't thought much about phrasing other than dynamics and articulations that composers/editors write on the sheet music. I'm not going to go into it...It's easy to find stuff to read about Marcel Tabuteau.

Otherwise, yes...a "pretty tone" can put patrons to sleep, but a passionately delivered phrase (regardless of the type of passion) will awaken them.

The list of current-era soloists, offered above - who can do stuff that I can't do...
I'm not particularly fond of listening to any of them play tuba solos.
I would listen to more of Mr. Bobo's playing, had he recorded more of it.

Here's the Baltimore Symphony's principal oboist, Katherine Needleman, delivering (possibly?) Poulenc's last work (before he died)...an oboe sonata which was a decade-after-his-death elegy for his friend, Sergei Prokofiev (or possibly an elegy for both Prokofiev and himself...??).
Playing this with no passion would be a disaster. This is just about the best I've ever heard this work performed.
A few tuba players, today, might possibly be able to technically execute the Scherzo at tempo, but I suspect some of the best would "fall flat" in executing the aural passion required in most of the rest of the sonata. I would have liked to have heard Mr. Bobo play this sonata (in the F tuba range) back in his "day"...
...and an "F tuba with a nice round sound, and good solid low C" wouldn't cut it, either.

The vast majority of the things she's doing, sonically, are not written on the printed pieces of paper...

[Dan Tuba]

Would you say that Roger Bobo exhibited the same level of nuance/ finesse/musicianship/phrasing as Rostropovich, YoYoMa, or any of the great tenors?

Why are tuba solos, at least the ones that seem to stick around, written primarily in what's considered a baritone/tenor range, with the occasional dip down into the "basement?"

How many tuba players have you heard with the ability to "turn a phrase" in what most people would consider the functional range of the tuba?

How many times have you heard a tuba soloist perform "live" with an ensemble in which most of the nuance/finesse wasn't audible out in the hall without sound reinforcement, however those things were audible in the recording of the performance?

My point(which I am sure that most of you are aware)is that it takes an incredible amount of physical ability and skill to project the same level of finesse/nuance on tuba than other instrumentalists. Many times, finesse/nuance/ phrasing is sacrificed for volume, AIR or vice versa without some sort of sound reinforcement/microphone. As you all know, it's even more difficult when you are performing a "solo" written primarily in and below the staff.

Roger Bobo was/is incredible and could play all over the range and then some of the tuba. However, most of his, as well as other great soloists nuance/finesse/phrasing (magic) are most audible/on display/transparent in the baritone/tenor range. Maybe that's why "tuba" solos are written primarily in and above the staff

Maybe Roger Bobo's sound concept was aimed at cutting all of the fat off of what would today, and maybe back then be considered a "characteristic" tuba sound in order to sound more like a "tenor." Clarity

"Your scientists [tuba players/composers]were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should"

[bloke]

I don't fall for that "since you hint that your standards might be higher than mine, I'm going to suggest those whose standards are higher than yours" crap.

bloke "It's a pretty good trolling attempt, though."

[russiantuba]

*Disagreeing with myself here - Carol Jantsch comes damn close. Her solo playing is the closest I've heard to Mr. Bobo's musicality and freedom on the instrument.

Carol studied with my DMA professor as her first teacher and then went to study with one of his classmates, Fritz Kaenzig. Jim (and Fritz) were huge on "whats your story" and being musical. I also studied with Roger Rocco a bit post doctorate (Rocco studied with Jacobs longer than anyone else), and he had me focus on "the song". Over the years I feel I have gone to focus on technical accuracy (mainly doing daily routine/fundamental stuff as the majority of my practice due to life conflicts to make sure I am always in good playing shape, more on that maybe one day), but I try to make that musical, take shape, etc. I feel no one really worked with me on story-telling and that as a focus until I studied with Jim (and the lesson I took after my audition was about this, which I found weird, but it was that weirdness that led me to choose where I did).

In lessons, even with beginners, I try to focus on style and musicality while maintaining solid rhythm. It seems like all many school band instructors care about is note accuracy. Right before the pandemic, I had a student I had taught for a few years, and I felt he was making no progress, and it was because I was saying things the exact opposite of his band director, and he decided to go with the band director. He was a small trombonist for his age, and had a very tight sound (I worked with him a lot on that) and was very mechanical in his playing. He broke down crying in one of the last lessons when I asked him if he actually was listening to the sound coming out of his bell. He said he was doing everything his director told him with the physical parts of his playing, and I think when he finally listened to me and listened, he understood. His mom was a bit protective of him and didn't want him to play trombone at all during the pandemic shut downs, but he re-joined concert band a few months later. I only was able to teach him over zoom and he had some time off, and he sounded like a different player. I could tell he was listening to his playing. I also believe that the mechanical input is what students are focusing on (as Jacobs would call it, the meat, instead of the product).

Kind of summing this up, Roger mentioned something to me, since he knew I was going the university teaching route. He said before music became more of a science, the focus on physicality and the input, that you essentially studied music in the conservatories, and it was studying the art form, the music. I know his approach isn't for everyone, but he mentioned how well Bobo sang. I love tuba solo repertoire, and most of the recordings I listen to, are much older recordings, some aren't even released off of LP (such as Bob LeBlanc's album, The Sound of a Tuba by Michael Thornton, etc). I have not heard any of the Harvey Phillips recordings, but when I have heard him play, it is that same level of musicality.

Lastly (if you have made it this far), I will play one of these recordings of a trumpet playing robot in Japan when students don't seem to care about musicality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fctULDctuA&t=43s. I have had one student beg me to never play it again because it disturbed them. Is this where music is heading?

[Mary Ann]

That fabulous oboe piece (thank you, bloke-- ) reminded me somehow of a park concert I attended a few years ago. Big concert band, the one I play horn in now, but I wasn't for some reason playing in it at that time. There was an oboe duet solo piece, the first oboe in the band and the then first oboe of Tucson Symphony. The symphony person played incredibly musically, and the band oboe just basically chugged along. At the time, I simply could not understand why the band oboe was not doing her level best to musically copy the symphony oboe (i.e., play WITH her,) but she wasn't even TRYING. It was like she was deaf or something. It sounded like a musician and a robot, basically. This is my biggest frustration (even more than intonation) about playing in the amateur groups I'm now stuck with due to failing technique. The VAST majority of them are not musicians and do not even KNOW they are not musicians. They chug along, playing the notes, more or less in time and more or less (usually less) in tune.
Now I'll go find some Bobo recordings and listen.

[bloke]

Sitting in rehearsals - in one orchestra in particular, over the past two decades - has taught me more about musical articulation and musical phrasing than any “tuba lessons“ that I’ve ever had – just listening to the music director work with the strings, who were already completely prepared, whereby simple decisions are being made - regarding how to color/shape phrases.

Sure, that orchestra’s reading rehearsals basically involve “poking at the notes“, but their poking at the notes sounds like a lot of other orchestras’ concerts.

It’s not anyone’s job to berate those whose skillsets have not been mastered as well as their own, and every person is going to find plenty of others whose skillsets will exceed their own.

Community bands and orchestras that play “for the love of it“ (the definition of “amateur“) vary in their collective skill levels from sort of sounding to others as if they are “paint by number“ musicians all the way to sounding just about like American military bands. It usually depends on the geography, the local cultural sophistication, and the population density. As would be expected, DC area amateur groups are jampacked with retired military band musicians, Texas big city amateur bands are jampacked with band directors who are probably 2nd/3rd call gigging musicians, etc.

To the main topic, again our instruments – pretty much – are mono-sonorous, and recent-era instrument designs have pushed the type of sound emitted more and more in this direction. During our formative years, functioning as “foundational sound“ instruments, we tend to not receive all that much attention and if we don’t step in rests and play reasonably in tune within 15% of the optimum dynamic, we are left “back there” to our own devices… and this doesn’t tend to promote very much learning towards musical expression. There’s really not much motivation to seek out this knowledge and these skills. Even when college teachers push tuba students through several books of 19th century vocalises transcribed to our octave, teachers tend to have to let tuba students get off with most of the notes and most of the articulations, with so much catch-up required - in the musical expression department - that it sort of has to be let go - and possibly with the teacher mindset, “OK… They’re going for a band director degree, so I guess they can graduate with a B minus from me”…and I’m not shaking any fingers at college teachers… There’s just too much catch-up work required to get past technical mastery and into musical expression.
Finally, it requires approximately twice as much energy and analysis to play with a very high level of musical expression, vs. simply playing the correct notes at the correct times with the correct articulations at the indicated dynamic levels.

[kingrob76]

I’ve always wondered how a 25-year-old Roger Bobo would do in today’s orchestral auditions.

When I read the original post I thought "I wonder what Roger would sound like if he grew up in today's world of larger equipment". After 5 minutes of pondering it I decided I couldn't decide and can make a case for pretty much anything, but he wouldn't sound exactly the same I don't believe.

[Rick Denney]

I’ve always wondered how a 25-year-old Roger Bobo would do in today’s orchestral auditions.

When I read the original post I thought "I wonder what Roger would sound like if he grew up in today's world of larger equipment". After 5 minutes of pondering it I decided I couldn't decide and can make a case for pretty much anything, but he wouldn't sound exactly the same I don't believe.

There's a picture that Bevan included in his first edition of George Wall playing an Alex 164 in the London Phil. That would have been contemporary with the height of Bobo's career. And Fletcher had a Holton 345 during that period, too. Jacobs was in Chicago at that time as well, and widely influential.

Going back much further, Sousa's bass section always had at least one or two jumbo sousaphones, as I recall from pictures. And that was the era when instruments like the Conn 36J Orchestra Grand Bass was first popular.

I think that bigger equipment has always been a thing, even if using it was not universal.

If anything has changed, it's the desire to have tuba sound that is devoid of upper harmonic content while still being loud. But I was listening again just this last week to Gene Pokorny's excerpts CD, and there were plenty of upper harmonics in his sound. Of course, that CD is not new, but I think Gene is still a model many would (and should) emulate. Gene was certainly influenced by the West Coast sound--that's where he cut his teeth.

As to how Bobo would do in a modern audition, I suspect he would do just fine. He had the sound that won him work in the 60's and 70's, and not just in LA. But I don't think it would be any great challenge for him to adopt whatever sound was necessary to be successful now. That's one of the points of this thread--he was flexible and multi-dimensional in tone and articulation.

Rick "would like to hear Bobo recorded better than what Crystal provided in the day" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Robot music is exactly where we are heading, though certainly not human-shaped robots. A LOT of music you hear is already just a pile of MIDI sequences.

Rick "also no fan of recordings to metronomic click tracks" Denney

[bloke]

Gene was never a "6/4 tuba guy" until hired for a job steeped in 6/4 tradition.

He consistently has told me that he used a 186 - when required to play first/second rounds of auditions, and might have moved to his (not much larger, but more hollow-sounding, to my ears) Hb 4/4 to play with the 'bones in finals.

I can't imagine him having used the (pre-Yamaha era) York 6/4 on that lp/cd...unless (??) on possibly one tune.
Of course, that huge tuba (next to that huge locomotive) made for a great album cover.
He's accessible, and can be asked...

[tubanh84]

Would you say that Roger Bobo exhibited the same level of nuance/ finesse/musicianship/phrasing as Rostropovich, YoYoMa, or any of the great tenors?

Why are tuba solos, at least the ones that seem to stick around, written primarily in what's considered a baritone/tenor range, with the occasional dip down into the "basement?"

I would say so. If you listen to his recording of the Penderecki Capriccio, it's all there. But he also exploits what the tuba does that the cello can't. We might be more limited in what we can do with articulation, but we have a wider dynamic range available.

As for the occasional dip, to me that's always been practical. I stand by what I said, but it doesn't negate the fact that playing in the "meat" register takes air. The amount of air (read: phrase) you can hold in your lungs is finite. And so there is less freedom to play the music as it is, rather than as you're physically limited to. And if I'm playing a piece from another instrument, I usually end up playing mostly in the mid-to-baritone register because that music does the same thing - stays in a mid register with occasional highs and lows. Like the Mozart Oboe Concerto. It sits MOSTLY in the octave between middle C and the octave and a half below it most naturally on tuba. Could it be done an octave lower? Sure, but there are some phrases that would be so physically demanding that they would cease to be musical.

[tubanh84]

Gene was never a "6/4 tuba guy" until hired for a job steeped in 6/4 tradition.

Question on this - And this is an honest question, not an "Oh he's bringing up the Chicago Yorks" troll:

Are the actual Chicago Yorks so much better than the knock-offs that although someone would rather not play one of the knock-offs, they would love to play the actual Yorks?

[bloke]

In my LIMITED but ACTUAL experience, the Yamaha knock-off is easier to steer, and much easier to play in tune than (only one that I've played) the overwhelmingly more-played York.

WERE it that I were "required" (for some gig) to own a tuba configured in that manner, I would (personally, and most people disagree with most of my opinions) pick the Yamaha over ANY of the other knock-offs...and (as far as the price) I would figure out some solution to that obstacle as well - just as violinists, etc., overcome their FAR-MORE-than-the-price-of-a-Yamaha-YCB-826S violin-buying and bow-buying obstacles.

Gene seems to like playing the Yamaha; he brings it with him to recitals, and will typically play a tune on it.

When he first had the Yamaha, Mrs. bloke and I sat in the mezzanine for a pre-concert lecture/demo by Gene demonstrating the Yamaha against the York. Mrs. bloke preferred the Yamaha, and I preferred (the SOUND, as I was operating NEITHER, obviously) neither over the other.

The CSO York (the one that has been actually mostly used) is an extremely fragile instrument, as it is obvious that - sometime during Mr. Jacobs' ownership - (sadly) someone absolutely buffed the holy living $h!t out of it - as it began it's life with a satin silver finish. To copy it's "extremely lightweight" characteristic - then - is an absolutely misguided endeavor.

Many would probably consider this to be blasphemous, but that York tuba might (??) greatly benefit from
- removing it's valveset, removing any patches, brazing any cracks, possibly piecing in repairs (brazing), inspecting all of the solder joints between the bows, GENEROUSLY copper plating (or silver, but that's a lotta dough) the body, replacing the (rebuilt how many times...??) valveset with a Yamaha valveset, and putting a new silver finish on the instrument. Of course, the original valveset would either be securely stored or - perhaps - even put on display.

[Rick Denney]

Gene was never a "6/4 tuba guy" until hired for a job steeped in 6/4 tradition.

He consistently has told me that he used a 186 - when required to play first/second rounds of auditions, and might have moved to his (not much larger, but more hollow-sounding, to my ears) Hb 4/4 to play with the 'bones in finals.

I can't imagine him having used the (pre-Yamaha era) York 6/4 on that lp/cd...unless (??) on possibly one tune.
Of course, that huge tuba (next to that huge locomotive) made for a great album cover.
He's accessible, and can be asked...

I’m not talking about his solo album, which he recorded in the early 90’s. A lot of that was on F tuba, as I recall. What a great album! Particularly the Bach flute sonatas.

I’m talking about the Orchestral Excerpts CD.

Yes, he was always a fan of the 186, but he embraced the York, too. That’s what he brought to the Army conference, and he sounded like Gene. Of course, Jacobs never sounded woofy on the York, either.

Rick “haven’t talked with Gene in a while—need to correct that” Denney

[matt g]

Gene was never a "6/4 tuba guy" until hired for a job steeped in 6/4 tradition.

He consistently has told me that he used a 186 - when required to play first/second rounds of auditions, and might have moved to his (not much larger, but more hollow-sounding, to my ears) Hb 4/4 to play with the 'bones in finals.

I can't imagine him having used the (pre-Yamaha era) York 6/4 on that lp/cd...unless (??) on possibly one tune.
Of course, that huge tuba (next to that huge locomotive) made for a great album cover.
He's accessible, and can be asked...

I’m not talking about his solo album, which he recorded in the early 90’s. A lot of that was on F tuba, as I recall. What a great album! Particularly the Bach flute sonatas.

I’m talking about the Orchestral Excerpts CD.

Yes, he was always a fan of the 186, but he embraced the York, too. That’s what he brought to the Army conference, and he sounded like Gene. Of course, Jacobs never sounded woofy on the York, either.

Rick “haven’t talked with Gene in a while—need to correct that” Denney

Yeah, that CD was on the York, iirc. I believe I chatted with him about it in the mid 1990s.

Absolutely different sound than Jacobs on that horn. From what I can recall, Jacobs sounded a lot like he did on the York even when testing out other (and significantly smaller) horns.

Concept of sound, approach to playing, along with physical differences mean a lot.