Serpent and ophicleide on Berlioz

[Bob Kolada]

What a sound! They start with both instruments but finish with 2 ophicleides, I guess they project better when everyone else is cranking along.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lZzr4xXPeyw

[bloke]

This recording, a couple of others, and some thinking are what encouraged/convinced me to mostly try to use euphonium on pieces that were written before the 1830s - that include a part that is usually handed to the tuba player.

There are obviously exceptions. One of them is when the tuba is asked to play the Mendelssohn part for contrabassoon or serpent in the Reformation Symphony. Since most modern ears are accustomed to hearing it played with contrabassoon, I play that piece on F tuba in the contrabassoon octave.

[UncleBeer]

One of them is when the tuba is asked to play the Mendelssohn part for contrabassoon or serpent in the Reformation Symphony. Since most modern ears are accustomed to hearing it played with contrabassoon, I play that piece on F tuba in the contrabassoon octave.

The part's actually for both contrabassoon and serpent, so the octaves were intended, and sound fantastic when played well. French tuba!

[windshieldbug]

I guess they project better when everyone else is cranking along.

ANYTHING projects better than a serpent!

I've been fortunate enough to play this with another ophicleide (C & Bb, to make up for each other's unsure notes). It is, indeed an unmistakable sound!

[bloke]

I haven't researched this, and I know that printed parts sometimes aren't exactly what were intended by composers, but did study French for a few years - along with having a sister who majored in French, studied a bit at the Sorbonne in Paris, and taught French through and beyond retirement), and thus my understanding of the word "ou" is that it means "or".
I realize that Mendelssohn was German (I even know of his Jewish heritage, and that a whole bunch of German Jews - even at that time - felt pressured/compelled to convert to Lutheranism), but I just don't know of "ou" as being a formal word in German, so I've assumed that it's printed on the part as the French word for "or". To reinforce my suspicion that the printed part contains the French word for "or", the spelling of "serpente" is also a French spelling - a speling which is not found in German.
(One of the first words I learned in French class was "et", meaning "and".)

Educate me otherwise.

I guess my final comment is that if two tuba players can talk a music director and personnel manager into hiring them to play "Reformation", all power to them.

[UncleBeer]

The "e" in all Romance languages (or "et", or "y") means "and".

reformation.jpg (72.51 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

[MikeS]

Here is a score that uses the Italian word “e”, which definitely means “and,” so go figure. As Bloke said, there are variations in printed parts. There is an article in an old ITEA Journal that talks about the acoustic benefits of using the two instruments together here:

http://berliozhistoricalbrass.org/29-4%20Sum02.pdf

[bloke]

Yep. That's a different edition from that which has been set in on my stands.

I enjoy seeing stuff and hearing stuff that I've not heard before.

I wonder what has happened when editions in different languages have been created in the past, in regards to how much stuff ends up not quite being the same.

[arpthark]

Mendelssohn's autographed manuscript also specifies "e" (and).

[bloke]

That's great information !

... but it also gets me thinking. There are some pasages that sound so goofy in the contrabass octave that I just haven't ever been able to coax myself to play them in that range (and no matter how delicately or carefully/nicely I was able to play them in that range). I wonder if those two instruments were meant to be played by the same person. The thing that suggests otherwise is that it's not marked where one would play one instrument and one would play the other.

...The finale in D with the trombones - and playing in the very low octave - sounds wonderful, in my opinion.

[Bob Kolada]

That's great information !

... but it also gets me thinking. There are some pasages that sound so goofy in the contrabass octave that I just haven't ever been able to coax myself to play them in that range (and no matter how delicately or carefully/nicely I was able to play them in that range). I wonder if those two instruments were meant to be played by the same person. The thing that suggests otherwise is that it's not marked where one would play one instrument and one would play the other.

...The finale in D with the trombones - and playing in the very low octave - sounds wonderful, in my opinion.

Contrabassoons are written at regular bassoon pitch, right? So that passage Uncle Beer posted is supposed to be sound 8vb? I bet it could be played very delicately on euphonium, or perhaps with a very minimal mute on F tuba or cimbasso (thinking especially of that upright Kalison cimbasso to avoid annihilating the row in front of you). Playing the Shostakovich 5th contrabassoon little bump around on euph is always fun.

[UncleBeer]

...or perhaps with a very minimal mute on F tuba or cimbasso ...

The serpent is an 8 foot C instrument, so both those alternatives are a fifth lower (12 feet). You can also probably play violin parts on the viola, but should you?

[bloke]

...or perhaps with a very minimal mute on F tuba or cimbasso ...

The serpent is an 8 foot C instrument, so both those alternatives are a fifth lower (12 feet). You can also probably play violin parts on the viola, but should you?

Of course not. You should play them on the French tuba.

[UncleBeer]

...or perhaps with a very minimal mute on F tuba or cimbasso ...

The serpent is an 8 foot C instrument, so both those alternatives are a fifth lower (12 feet). You can also probably play violin parts on the viola, but should you?

Of course not. You should play them on the French tuba.

Co-rrect!

[bloke]

...I really was interested to see the original version (as well as that published version)...re: the "e" vs. ou".

That having been said, I've never seen a "shared" orchestral part before.

LOL...even in Haydn (etc.) symphonies - where the trumpet is basically a "honking percussion instrument", separate trumpet and timpani parts are supplied.

REGARDLESS...

If you're 1-in-100,000 tuba players who's mastered the French tuba ~or~ if you are a very competent euphonium doubler...

I believe the Dies Irae sounds MUCH more "ominous/disturbing" on instruments such as those (either PLAYING mezzo forte or defacto SOUNDING mezzo forte) RATHER THAN a couple of F-tuba hillbillies blasting their guts out...and - whichever of these - it (if a tuba player playing euphonium) needs to be one who's figured out how to "do" to weird "round" embouchure (ledger lines below the staff) whereby those pitches sound full, and don't ride sharp.

[UncleBeer]

It might be peculiar to Mendelssohn; he wrote "Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt" (Op.27) exactly the same way: contrabassoon and serpent. https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... e_Op27.pdf

[jtm]

The serpent is an 8 foot C instrument, so both those alternatives are a fifth lower (12 feet). You can also probably play violin parts on the viola, but should you?

The serpent is an 8 foot C instrument, but the lowest (fundamental) octave (C below the staff) is not any worse than any other octave.

[Snake Charmer]

When Mendelssohn wrote his music the contrabassoons were not the powerful devices we know now, and the serpent has much less power than a modern brass horn. In this setting the octaves in playing the bass line (as the contrabassoon plays one octave lower than written) made absolutely sense. So there should be two people playing the part simultanously. And I don't think there were many players around who could play serpent and contrabasson good enough to play both during a concert!
When updating the equipment it may be better to play it on a single instrument. I played the Reformation Symphony once with the ophicleide in the serpent register, and it proved powerful enough to carry the orchestra without contrabasson.

[matt g]

There’s some additional magic in that recording above due to the trombone players using those much smaller horns. They simply have a more “brilliant” tone at mp/mf than today’s telescopic euphoniums that are often used in orchestras.

[arpthark]

telescopic euphoniums