vintage 186 420mm diameter bells' resonance characteristics

[bloke]

anyone have enough experience with (earlier) V-insert seamed vs. (later) straight-line bell-flare seamed 16-1/2 inch 186 bells to offer any opinions?

bloke "a skeptic, but an open-minded one"

[peterbas]

.

[bloke]

Actually have a reason for asking, but it's sort of the back burner type of reason.
Moving on...
Some of the really remarkable 186 tubas that I've played were the V insert bell earlier ones.

[Wally]

I was lucky enough to acquire a used 186 BBb back in 1976 just before I went off to college. It was made in 1968 and has the v-shaped solder line. I have played it ever since, in the university Philharmonic, various community bands and orchestras, and a couple of stints on Mississippi Riverboats. I have loved it's tone, free blowing quality, projection, and decent-enough intonation. I can't say that I have compared it to many other instruments, though I have in recent years acquired a Rudy 5/4 CC that I am also in love with.

[Tim Jackson]

My 1960 5U CC has the V seam. Although I can't compare - I do know that back in the day - a period between 1974 and later everyone always told me it was the best 186 that they've ever played. I always thought it was because of the larger lead pipe. Not much help but just sayin' "all roads lead to V"

Tj

[Paulver]

Mine is a 1971, 186 BBb. Is that the vintage you're referring to or are you looking for earlier models?

[bort2.0]

No experience, very few opinions... but that won't keep me from running my mouth...

The V seam is a one piece bell, the other kind is a two piece.

I'm guessing the metal thickness is more consistent on the V seam than it is on the two piece (similar to the handmade vs hydraulically formed bows), but that seems impossible to measure accurately.

The other V seam advantage is less seams overall... Which I'd think is a good thing.

Doesn't B&S use a 1 piece bell, formed by taking the "tube" and then slamming it down on that mandrel to get it to size? Wasn't there a video of Jon Sass giving a tour of the factory, and showing that step?

And didn't Willson advertise a 1 piece seamless bell? Which I can only imagine is a brass circle that gets pushed down in the middle to make some kind of black hole shape, and is then banged into a tuba bell shape...? (Never seen that done, but that's my best guess)

[bloke]

My 1960 5U CC has the V seam. Although I can't compare - I do know that back in the day - a period between 1974 and later everyone always told me it was the best 186 that they've ever played. I always thought it was because of the larger lead pipe. Not much help but just sayin' "all roads lead to V"

Tj

A cousin of mine - who's now close to 80 - asked his mother if he could have an amazing painter-touched-up photograph of her and her sister as very little girls hugging on to their mother's apron strings. This was a very large photograph that was the size of a significantly sized painting and framed. He asked her this question probably two decades ago, and she replied, "You can have it when I'm gone," to which he asked, "When are you going?"

I was reminded of this when you quoted people stating that such and such was the best they'd ever played, to which the obvious question is, "How many have you played?"

[cjk]

No experience, very few opinions... but that won't keep me from running my mouth...

The V seam is a one piece bell, the other kind is a two piece.

I'm guessing the metal thickness is more consistent on the V seam than it is on the two piece (similar to the handmade vs hydraulically formed bows), but that seems impossible to measure accurately.

The other V seam advantage is less seams overall... Which I'd think is a good thing.
....

The V seam shows where two pieces are joined together, so I think calling that a "one piece" bell is pretty funny especially coming from a guy with a math degree.

I do realize that other people call that a one piece bell, but it sure doesn't seem like it is.

One of my college buddies would say, "that's not math, that's arithmetic".

[cjk]

The making of a two piece Miraphone bell:

[bort2.0]

French horn bell w/huge gusset

[bort2.0]

The making of a two piece Miraphone bell:

It's always bugged me that they didn't show the making of the top part of the bell.

[bloke]

The making of a two piece Miraphone bell:

It's always bugged me that they didn't show the making of the top part of the bell.

well...
These days we're getting a lot more information than fifty years ago, when the exclusive American importers were distributing booklets talking about Mirafone's secret formula gold brass, which surely didn't have any gold in it, and also was fairly obviously regular yellow brass.

[bort2.0]

That was part of an elaborate West German disinformation campaign against the GDR.

[arpthark]

That was part of an elaborate West German disinformation campaign against the GDR.

Cold Tuba War!

Relevant: https://www.300below.com/musical-instruments/

[bort2.0]

That was part of an elaborate West German disinformation campaign against the GDR.

Cold Tuba War!

Relevant: https://www.300below.com/musical-instruments/

Has the crystalline structure of my 100 year old tuba stabilized itself yet, or am I still waiting for that to happen?

[the elephant]

Y'all don't remember your history. ALL bells are two pieces. The term "one-piece bell" refers to how many pieces the flare has. A "two-piece bell" has an insert, which is called a gusset. A gusseted bell flare is considered to be a "two-piece bell" by manufacturers. When companies like Yamaha started using advertising hype to show off their more modern manufacturing techniques (i.e. less traditional and, therefore, less labor-intensive and costly) they seriously hyped "plasma welding" tubing seams, calling it "seamless" (which is only partially correct, as "seamless" tubing still has a seam) and the use of "one-piece" bells, which meant that the bell flare was a continuous disc and did not have one of those nasty Euro gussets that are so ugly and obviously make for inferior sound quality. Which is also ad hype. Both bells sound just fine. And, as we are discussing here, perhaps the older, two-piece, gusseted bells are superior in some ways.

• A two-piece bell is a flare that has a gusset inserted where the ends open up as the metal is formed and "stretched" over a mandrel. It is a method developed to make up for shortcomings in the tools available in the 19th century. You could not make the three-dimensional shape out of the two-dimensional shape unless you inserted that gusset at the big end.

• A one-piece bell is a flare that is spun from a disc of metal as a single piece. It is a method developed to correct a problem that was never really a problem, but more of an issue with labor time and cost. This really started to be a "thing" in the late 1970s.
_____________________________

My two 1971 186s have gusseted bells and rolled/seamed leadpipes. One one of these two horns you can clearly see the seam down the edge of the leadpipe, as well as down the sides of all the branches and bell — all of them. I remember my BBb 186 in high school that had been purchased in 1966 had worn lacquer, and you could see these seams (and bell gussets) all over the place. These were really nice, old tubas when I used them between 1979 and 1983. I hated to turn in my brand new (1981, probably) 186 that I used my senior year. It was a gem, and dent- and scratch-free with a perfect wood-shell case. I was so excited to get to check out a brand, new tuba in August of 1982. However, I had to work a bit harder to get as much sound out of it in the band. I am pretty sure the old horns had the larger leadpipes and this one had a skinnier one: the tone and intonation were better, and that helped me out at contests, but the old one I had used for three years was much easier to play out while relaxed in a large ensemble. You could just sit back and blow, allowing the tuba to do the work. The old ones did not get ratty so easily in fortissimo sections. The new one required almost no pitch corrections, other than second space C needing to be 13. The 1966 horns all had to have their 1st slides worked on so that they moved freely, as they needed to be adjusted on the fly a lot more than the horn from the early 1980s.

I am pretty sure the new one also had the gusseted bell, but it was also a little thicker and heavier, so I don't think they hammered them as much, doing more spinning than in the old days. I don't really know. I really need to visit the factory to take a tour, I guess.

[bloke]

Bach "Stradivarius" trumpet/trombone bells (vs. lower-line "BACH" stuff) are genuinely one-piece.

They start out with sheet metal that is too thick, cut it into a typical two-dimensional bell shape, STRETCH the bell end of the cutout (into a lasagna pasta roller-coaster three-dimensional shape), bend it into a cone, run a straight seam down the entire cone (which ends up on the bottom side of the trumpet bells, or the inside of the trombone bells) spin them into shape, and then meticulously BELT SAND everything but the bell flare down thinner (to approximate the stretched-out-thinner bell flare's thickness)...so there is a seam, but only one piece of sheet metal is involved.

This would be impractical for tubas, due to size and scope, and I tend to wonder if it accomplishes anything positive.

Either V-insert of flare-stuck-on-the-end tuba bells are two-piece, because two separate pieces of sheet metal were brazed together to make a bell.

Some manufacturers have made seamLESS (sort of "no-piece") bells by plating copper onto mandrels (Anderson Silver Plating does this for Schilke, and formerly also did it for Blessing) until it's thicker than is needed to be a bell. Once this plating (copper) is loosened from their mandrels, these bells are mounted on spinning mandrels (back at the instrument factory) to turn the bell's rim, and to sand these made-of-copper-plating bells smooth prior to buffing them. They have no temper, as they were never heated (other than a few hundred degrees at the rim, for lead soldering), and were never "worked" into shape (other than bending the bows of the trumpet bells).

When intonation was good and the rotors weren't worn, I've tended to like the sound of V-insert/gusset Miraphone model 86 420mm bells better than the flare-attached (still: "vintage") 420mm bells...EVEN THOUGH those with a gusset have sounded DIFFERENT from EACH OTHER.

[bort2.0]

I thought this was an interesting read about French Horn bells:
https://houghtonhorns.com/pages/ricco-k ... nical-data

Bells for Ricco Kühn horns are made by a spinning process on mandrels of their own design.

Different shapes and special manufacturing technologies offer individual characteristics in response and sound, suitable to the different horn models.

When the same metal and bell size is used, horns with hand-hammered bells have a somewhat lighter response, are reacting more sensitive and admittedly, sound somewhat brighter in ff. Horns with spun bells have a somewhat higher but at the same time agreeable resistance, the sound is fuller and in ff firmer.

Both manufacturing methods have their advantages depending on model and bell size.

On some models, it is possible to supply bells with a gusset inserted. This even more expensive technology enables the production of hand-hammered bells that are almost the same thickness right up to the rim. This means it is possible to make them with very thin walls and yet still retain sound stability in ff