ELKHART (original/the best) production Conn sousaphones (lower mouthpipe bracing)

[bloke]

I had a grouping of three brass sousaphones to repair for a school.

Two were fairly-recent-vintage King sousaphones (OK...removable valveset with the slip joint and the three knurled bolts is weird (cheesy?), but - other than messing up the valveset positioning a bit, it seems to work alright. One of them has the stick-on branch guards, which I pulled off, scraped off the glue, and (well...) took advantage of them NOT being there to smooth out the branches (even though I STILL had to un-solder the lower 2nd branch - as the since-the-last-three-decades-or-so thinwall metal was so smashed inward), and then stuck them back on with woodwind contact cement. (I'm sure they're hold for a good long time. )

Anyway...

AFTER repairing those two King sousaphone-like objects, there was a (real ) Conn 20K (Elkhart vintage, and in darn good shape).
It was a bit dented up (ten minutes of magnet work on the body...easy-peazy), the S-shaped lower mouthpipe was slightly folded, the receiver had been yanked loose (still mounted on the gooseneck, and one of the (again: original vintage, wonderful) CAST braces was missing.

OK...
EVEN THOUGH I had to fabricate a NEW cast brace (from quarter-inch brass rod), it took me WAY less time to straighten that lower mouthpipe tube, re-expand the (lack-of-being-soldered-caused: swaged) upper end of the lower mouthpipe, shrink back down the BOTTOM end of the unattached gooseneck receiver, and solder everything back together THAN it WOULD HAVE taken to deal with one of those absurd/jackass/nightmare "hoop" or friggin' "DOUBLE-hoop" ineffective/difficult modern brace systems.

It's NOT that I'm more "comfortable" with the "old way"...I'm QUITE out-of-practice with the "old way"...but - dammit - the "old way" is just plain better (as "stoo-undtz" will tear that stuff loose, regardless...) - and FAR easier/quicker to repair. The "hoop" systems (basically) are just stupid P's.O.S.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

I don't know what the big deal is about the barely-a-coat-of enamel paint. It comes right off with gasoline, more easily than does clear lacquer (which has to be removed with lacquer stripper - which the government no longer allows to be sold to us), and which is also paint.

The condition of the lacquer on this instrument is easily seen. I don't see getting a Elkhart 20K pulled apart, stripped, perfectly straightened out, put back together for less than $4,000, and JP sousaphones - with their really superbly-made valve sections - only cost about that much to schools. Since band directors aren't up to speed on the quality of new 20K sousaphones and don't spend their own money, they'll probably just fork over $12,000 a piece for brand new thin 20K's (as long as Conn-Selmer stays in business) so I doubt if this one's ever going to see a new finish.

The hoop braces don't brace a Conn lower mouthpipe (due to where the receiver is in relation to nearby tubing). They are just "things that are there". I guess they sort of brace a King, but then interpolating that system over to a Conn 20K (particularly these days: with a ridiculous pillow block and a pair of those things) is just dumb.

... the current 20K sousaphones - with all those double braces and bow wall thickness which only seems to be about a half millimeter - just seems really silly to me. ...adding weight on useless extra braces - rather than useful wall thickness.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

I'm covering up small areas where bare lead is exposed, it's quicker than sanding brass or buffing brass, I can get on with the next instrument, and I might be able to stay a little bit cleaner, so I don't have to take a second shower before I go to bed.

It's not like I don't ask...
"Based on the condition of the finish, are you okay with me just spritzing a little paint over re-soldered areas and charging you less?"
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"absolutely"
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I don't get the repair guy freak-out over brass colored paint, when band directors aren't bothered by it at all, on old worn finish instruments. "Colored paint isn't 'professional" but clear paint is, but colored paint IS 'professional' if colored paint is what was put on at the factory."... In the meantime the valve casings - that are two inches away - are all brown and green.
...so last time - when I suggested that you obviously do brass repairs, you made some offhanded remark as an attempt to deny or distract. Is it supposed to be some poorly-kept secret or something?

... and the claim that band directors insist on cast braces being swapped out for bent-rod hoop braces... Overwhelmingly, band directors only notice (or are told by students) that stuff is torn up, and I've never had one tell me what TYPE of braces to put back on a lower mouthpipe (nor anything else). I believe I'm reading "strawman/let me see if I can troll bloke" rhetoric... but go on ahead with it. Right now, I'm resting from working, and I'd rather read trolls then watch "The Rifleman" on MeTV.
"Hey Daddy, what does 'hussy' mean?"
"Well Marcus..."

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

Leave it to the professionals (as you is over at the tube)...or hone your skills on fakebook, and then come back and try again.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

Troll all you like.
The drawback of typed words is that you can't hear me laughing when I read them.
As far as trying to claim to not be someone who fixes horns or is associated with some sort of store or something, that's fine, but your comments and language don't back that up.

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I just picked up repairs from another school that told me three years ago they want to use me for school instrument repairs "because I know all about tubas" (They've since discovered Mrs bloke, and found out that their expensive bassoons actually do play when set up properly, their bari saxes can still be made to play as well as they did when they first bought them decades ago - when everything is straightened back out, unbent, all the leaks are gone, and the pad cups are at the right heights, and that their old plastic clarinets are not "just worn out"). When I walked into their band room yesterday, I saw that they've bought a bunch of those $12,000 (school bid) new thin-wall USA 6/4 sousaphones with all of those extra braces (where bracing has never been a problem), and their bells are already all folded up...

... I guess those things still are pretty much okay - sound-wise (they've never been my favorite, as I've always preferred the normal size sousaphones), but where is the piston machine fit, slide alignment, finish, and durability?
I think they cost dealers over $9,000 now (every possible dealer discount). There's nothing to say about that when put that on an inflation calculator (particularly with the type of inflation that's been engineered over the past three years) but - again - there's no there, there.

The odd thing is that they had those hanging on the wall with their bells all creased up, and they didn't even want me to fix those, I guess because everything is still soldered together and the valves - such as they are - still go up and down.

LOL... I have to keep my mouth shut, and remember that they hired me to fix stuff that they tear up - and only that which they want fixed, and not as their advisor.

An interesting trend is that - as younger head band directors take over some of these larger schools (where an older/retiring band director - who may have marched in a corps - had these so-called contras), the younger band directors are going back to sousaphones. a common quote: "We've had so many fewer problems with the instruments - along with way fewer problems with these kids carrying them around, and we're getting twice the sound."

me: NOT saying this...
"Even though they've messed their design up (since they were so amazing and so well made - "2nd generation"...??, roughly thirty decades ago), you would have even less problems, less original cash outlay, less downtime, and less maintenance/repair if you had King fiberglass sousaphones, instead of those silver plated most-any brand sousaphones."

bloke "I'm thinking that the silver plated brass sousaphones thing is mostly a show-off-in-front-of-other-band-directors thing. Even though - in my opinion - King fiberglass sousaphones aren't what they once were, there is some incredibly durable automotive paint made today that is just about as shiny as brightly-polished silver, and would look just fine sprayed on those King fiberglass bodies - combined with chrome-plated valve sections."

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

#3 heavily-used King #3 slide bow - heavily dented (repaired/no issues)

a week later:

#3 heavily dented Taiwan #3 extremely similar slide bow (almost never played, and dents were extremely similar) - two large cracks.

[iiipopes]

Many years ago I was privileged with the use of a 38K. It has the same mouthpipe brace structure as a 20K, which is its successor. (OK - add short throw valves and change the bell from 24 to 26 inches....) As bloke has described, the mouthpipe needed rebuilding, including the bracing. I agree absolutely with bloke. Fortunately, the local tech of the time also understood and repaired it correctly with old-style 20K mouthpipe and braces as bloke describes above. But for arthritis in my shoulder I would still be playing it.

[bloke]

The 20K in the picture with the paint on it...

I'm thinking about swapping them that instrument for (once I fix up the ONE King that's in bloke's attic) a nice King (since everything else they have is either King or King-like - JP/Jupiter), restore that 20K, and home it with another school (with nine 20K's that would like to have ten 20K's).

hmm...That gold paint would end up being rubbed off with gasoline and a rag after all...

[bloke]

I'd like to take back what I said about the arch brace system (on King sousaphones).
It's not worth a damn on a King, either.





Jupiter copies King's old way to brace the lower mouthpipe receiver.
Even though Jupiter's version (per Jupiter bracing in general) is under-engineered, it tends to not fail as epically and as completely as with the arch brace system.

That having been said, I believe that more lettuce, turnip greens, and less cannabis - might help out as well.

[bloke]

UPDATE ON THE CONN 20K...

I was just handed the BELL SECTION (as a "follow-up")...

The flair is 75% un-soldered from the elbow, but...

...OK, those two parts (with all sorts of people torquing them against each other) held together for what...(??) SIXTY YEARS or so...

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

We blame these lower mouthpipe bracing systems on their designs, but they would probably last for a couple of lifetimes or more if the little children would loosen the tension screws when taking them off...


... and the same goes for folded and twisted saxophone necks.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

Those things look beefy, but those two .7mm-thick x 1/2"-round sheet metal flanges (typically not soldered to the center, unless tinned, and surely never tinned during factory installation) are all that hold all of that "beef" in place. Even when someone does it correctly (as I'm sure you did) and pre-tins those flanges, the total area of those two solder joints is a scant 4/10th of an inch.
It's convenient, much simpler to manufacture than the three original Elkhart-style cast braces (which require a person minding a key-bending machine), but the three cast braces offer something like 8/10 of an inch (the three feet attached to different slide tubes) of soldered-down surface...in addtion to bracing in a tripod fashion (from fairly evenly-spaced portions of 360 degrees).

Further that "beef" is on the part of the receiver which is rarely damaged (the female tube) rather than the lower mouthpipe tube (which is always the victim) or the tension ring (which sometimes suffers from abuse).

We can discuss this back-and-forth, but the actual problem is lack of parenting (too may homes without fathers scolding their sons when they handle things carelessly and tear things up - in this case, not even bothering to ever loosen a wing screw) and - additionally - attending classes (including band classes) under the influence of one of several substances.

ie. That new/easier-to-make/install system would hold up just as well as the more costly original system, if those things (touched on in the previous paragraph) were addressed.

Had you, I, or any of our classmates torn stuff up like that, we could have been chewed out by our directors (as well as having received demerits posted on a public chart), chewed out by our directors, made to pay for the damage, and would have been ridiculed by our section-mates.