Adding fourth valve to three valve Couesnon.

[Thom]

What would it take to have a fourth valve added to an existing three valve 3/4 BBb Couesnon tuba? I have searched the archives and I realize there are pros and cons, but I am specifically looking to get an idea of parts needed and labor costs necessary to add a valve. I have included front and back pictures of said tuba.

[bort2.0]

Respectfully, I think the costs outweigh the value/advantages for this tuba.

I have a 3 valve tuba myself, and have also explored and considered it... just doesn't make a whole lot of financial sense, if, you can find someone to take on the project.

[Thom]

Would you spend $5000 on engine improvements to a $3000 car that would be worth $3000 after the improvements?

Adding…

What you’d probably have to do is source another Bb of the same make and model for the valve, valve casing, and tubing. So roughly whatever you paid for the current horn, you’ll have to pay it again.

Then you’ll need to find someone that’s not only confident but capable of fitting the second valve to that valve block as a fourth valve. That’s not gonna be cheap. Probably several hundreds of dollars. At least.

Someone might be able to cut a fourth valve into the branch after the valve cluster, but that’s gonna require a good bit of measuring and luck as well as sourcing a piston or rotor of the appropriate bore. Probably less money for parts, but maybe more for execution?

In the end, it likely won’t look quite right and you may not improve playability at all.

The reason I pointed out that Chinese made YBB-621 copy is because it is probably about the cheapest 4v tuba that one can find in a similar size and the design is pretty well sorted.

[Thom]

Would you spend $5000 on engine improvements to a $3000 car that would be worth $3000 after the improvements?

Adding…

What you’d probably have to do is source another Bb of the same make and model for the valve, valve casing, and tubing. So roughly whatever you paid for the current horn, you’ll have to pay it again.

Then you’ll need to find someone that’s not only confident but capable of fitting the second valve to that valve block as a fourth valve. That’s not gonna be cheap. Probably several hundreds of dollars. At least.

Someone might be able to cut a fourth valve into the branch after the valve cluster, but that’s gonna require a good bit of measuring and luck as well as sourcing a piston or rotor of the appropriate bore. Probably less money for parts, but maybe more for execution?

In the end, it likely won’t look quite right and you may not improve playability at all.

The reason I pointed out that Chinese made YBB-621 copy is because it is probably about the cheapest 4v tuba that one can find in a similar size and the design is pretty well sorted.

I kind of figured that it would not be cost effective. Just wanted some input to come to a good decision. Also, I have had bad luck in the past with a Chinese tuba, Cerveny five valve copy, just being cautious. Thx.

[2nd tenor]

Would you spend $5000 on engine improvements to a $3000 car that would be worth $3000 after the improvements?

Adding…

What you’d probably have to do is source another Bb of the same make and model for the valve, valve casing, and tubing. So roughly whatever you paid for the current horn, you’ll have to pay it again.

Then you’ll need to find someone that’s not only confident but capable of fitting the second valve to that valve block as a fourth valve. That’s not gonna be cheap. Probably several hundreds of dollars. At least.

Someone might be able to cut a fourth valve into the branch after the valve cluster, but that’s gonna require a good bit of measuring and luck as well as sourcing a piston or rotor of the appropriate bore. Probably less money for parts, but maybe more for execution?

The 3/4 BBb Couesnon tuba looks like a very practical instrument to me, it might not suit all uses but I can see it being very good for some.

In the end, it likely won’t look quite right and you may not improve playability at all.

The reason I pointed out that Chinese made YBB-621 copy is because it is probably about the cheapest 4v tuba that one can find in a similar size and the design is pretty well sorted.

I kind of figured that it would not be cost effective. Just wanted some input to come to a good decision. Also, I have had bad luck in the past with a Chinese tuba, Cerveny five valve copy, just being cautious. Thx.

It seems to me that the jury have let you know that adding a fourth valve is something that’s neither easy or cost effective, so it’s best to do something else.

I’m curious as to why and how badly you need a fourth valve. What experience is pushing you towards a change and could you continue to get by without? To get something better than what you already have is going to cost you many multiples of the value of your Couesnon, it might be worth it to you and you might easily have the funds but that’s a lot to pay for the limited gain.

The 3/4 BBb Couesnon tuba looks like it’s an instrument to enjoy for what it is, it might not suit everyone but folk don’t all have the same needs.
for what little it’s worth I’ve heard a lot of good music pushed out of similar simple three valve tubas …

[Thom]

Would you spend $5000 on engine improvements to a $3000 car that would be worth $3000 after the improvements?

Adding…

What you’d probably have to do is source another Bb of the same make and model for the valve, valve casing, and tubing. So roughly whatever you paid for the current horn, you’ll have to pay it again.

Then you’ll need to find someone that’s not only confident but capable of fitting the second valve to that valve block as a fourth valve. That’s not gonna be cheap. Probably several hundreds of dollars. At least.

Someone might be able to cut a fourth valve into the branch after the valve cluster, but that’s gonna require a good bit of measuring and luck as well as sourcing a piston or rotor of the appropriate bore. Probably less money for parts, but maybe more for execution?

The 3/4 BBb Couesnon tuba looks like a very practical instrument to me, it might not suit all uses but I can see it being very good for some.

In the end, it likely won’t look quite right and you may not improve playability at all.

The reason I pointed out that Chinese made YBB-621 copy is because it is probably about the cheapest 4v tuba that one can find in a similar size and the design is pretty well sorted.

I kind of figured that it would not be cost effective. Just wanted some input to come to a good decision. Also, I have had bad luck in the past with a Chinese tuba, Cerveny five valve copy, just being cautious. Thx.

It seems to me that the jury have let you know that adding a fourth valve is something that’s neither easy or cost effective, so it’s best to do something else.

I’m curious as to why and how badly you need a fourth valve. What experience is pushing you towards a change and could you continue to get by without? To get something better than what you already have is going to cost you many multiples of the value of your Couesnon, it might be worth it to you and you might easily have the funds but that’s a lot to pay for the limited gain.

The 3/4 BBb Couesnon tuba looks like it’s an instrument to enjoy for what it is, it might not suit everyone but folk don’t all have the same needs.
for what little it’s worth I’ve heard a lot of good music pushed out of similar simple three valve tubas …

The reason I keep going back and forth on getting a four valve tuba or keeping the three valve Couesnon is that I used to play symphonic tuba in my early years, so my brain keeps thinking that 3 valves is a limitation. Intellectually I realize, especially at 63 years of age and only just recently coming back after over 13 years of not playing any horns at all, that I should just relax and enjoy the tuba I have. But emotionally it keeps nagging at me, or maybe it is just silly pride. I have a Conn 80J that is a four valve, but I need to sell it because it is too much to move around with a bad back. I appreciate the comments and suggestions, I will have to think over it all and make a good decision.

[Grumpikins]

So, everyone else's points are very valid. However, I'll put this out there and maybe stir the pot a little.

If, for instance, you have been playing this horn for years and really love it; then adding a fourth valve may be of great value to you.

It would be very expensive to have a shop do this for you. That expense to you would never be added to the market value of the horn.

It's all about the value it would add to the horn for you.

I've had my 3 valve king since 1997ish and would love to have a 4th valve on it. But the hassle and cost is too great. Especially when there are later models of the same horn that do have 4 valves.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[2nd tenor]

The reason I keep going back and forth on getting a four valve tuba or keeping the three valve Couesnon is that I used to play symphonic tuba in my early years, so my brain keeps thinking that 3 valves is a limitation. Intellectually I realize, especially at 63 years of age and only just recently coming back after over 13 years of not playing any horns at all, that I should just relax and enjoy the tuba I have. But emotionally it keeps nagging at me, or maybe it is just silly pride. I have a Conn 80J that is a four valve, but I need to sell it because it is too much to move around with a bad back. I appreciate the comments and suggestions, I will have to think over it all and make a good decision.

What you played in the past does not need to shape your current decisions, with respect only what you do now and hope to do is relevant.

A fourth valve adds weight, a fourth valve adds intonation issues which are solved by either compensating tubing (more weight) or pulling slides as you play (for which you need front acting pistons and stuff).

You’ve just come back, why not have a couple of years playing the Couesnon as is and just see how it goes and what turns up? There was an old man’s Tuba thread which might add insight. Me, I’m just glad to do something; if three simple valves will see me playing into my later years then I’m good with that - don’t need perfection just need something that’ll keep me going.

[Thom]

The reason I keep going back and forth on getting a four valve tuba or keeping the three valve Couesnon is that I used to play symphonic tuba in my early years, so my brain keeps thinking that 3 valves is a limitation. Intellectually I realize, especially at 63 years of age and only just recently coming back after over 13 years of not playing any horns at all, that I should just relax and enjoy the tuba I have. But emotionally it keeps nagging at me, or maybe it is just silly pride. I have a Conn 80J that is a four valve, but I need to sell it because it is too much to move around with a bad back. I appreciate the comments and suggestions, I will have to think over it all and make a good decision.

What you played in the past does not need to shape your current decisions, with respect only what you do now and hope to do is relevant.

A fourth valve adds weight, a fourth valve adds intonation issues which are solved by either compensating tubing (more weight) or pulling slides as you play (for which you need front acting pistons and stuff).

You’ve just come back, why not have a couple of years playing the Couesnon as is and just see how it goes and what turns up? There was an old man’s Tuba thread which might add insight. Me, I’m just glad to do something; if three simple valves will see me playing into my later years then I’m good with that - don’t need perfection just need something that’ll keep me going.

That is good advice. I have gone through three different tubas since starting back on tuba after playing trumpet for one concert and trombone for a couple of concerts since the beginning of the year. I have ADHD that is really bad, always have, and I have a tendency to go back and forth with overthinking stuff a lot. I am starting lessons with a professional bass trombone/tuba player who I like and when we get back together for lessons in November I am sure he will help guide me in my comeback. I am going to just keep the Couesnon for now and try to be content with getting my chops back before thinking about any equipment changes. Thank you all for your insights.

[Grumpikins]

I'm just wondering why your not considering an Eb tuba? Your looking for a 3/4 size horn because of issues of size and weight? The small Eb I'm repairing is like a large euph, only slightly bigger than the parts donor yamaha euph. But it still has the beautiful tuba sound from the small amount of test playing I have done on it.

Anyway, I'm sure your teacher will be able to really point you in the direction that will work best for you. Best of luck, and welcome back.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[2nd tenor]

I'm just wondering why your not considering an Eb tuba? Your looking for a 3/4 size horn because of issues of size and weight? The small Eb I'm repairing is like a large euph, only slightly bigger than the parts donor yamaha euph. But it still has the beautiful tuba sound from the small amount of test playing I have done on it.

Anyway, I'm sure your teacher will be able to really point you in the direction that will work best for you. Best of luck, and welcome back.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

To me that’s an interesting balance - or two - and a balance that I’ve been wondering about. False tones and compensating issues aside the pitch range of a four valve Eb is greater than that of a three valve BBb, and an Eb Tuba (three valve) can have a very useful range - I’ve talked about my own three valve Eb before and very positively so too. I normally play a four compensating valve Eb (EEb) and love it; however my EEb isn’t light and isn’t small, EEb’s (four valves) are expensive and playing through the fourth valve can be slightly stuffy. The Eb/EEb Tuba is arguably more cantabile than a BBb, but on all the remaining criteria a 3/4 size three valve BBb could be either better or hard to beat.

[iiipopes]

If the layout of the valve slides is amenable, it may be more cost effective instead to turn the 1st valve slide into a moveable slide on the top or side of the circuit, depending on how it is plumbed, to "ride throttle" on usual suspect notes. Being a 3/4 instrument, it isn't going to have the depth of response to play lower pitches requiring a 4th valve with the same authority as a larger tuba. I have done this to every Conn 3-valve sousaphone I have owned and played that the owner, if not me, allowed me to, with great success. I also cut it a little short so 1st valve is in tune with @ 5/8 inch pull, so I can push on the 5th partial second space C which on most instruments tends to be a little flat, and then pull as necessary for 1+2, 1+3, and 1+2+3 valve combinations.

[The Big Ben]

I had a 3v Miraphone Perinet Standard for a long time. It didn't cost very much and it played fine. It was a good "second string" BBb horn. Mira made a similar horn with four valves. I don't know if it was better but, ya know, it had four valves so it was, like, one valve better. I kept looking for one of the 4v horns that had been dropped on its head so I could take the valve cluster out and glue it into the 3v horn. Boom! Horn that "goes to eleven." Never found that donor horn and eventually sold the 3v horn to a kid a a price his family could afford and it's all good.

Some suggestions for making slides easier to pull for tuning have been made and that's worth pursuing. However, it's a good point that either just living with it or selling it and finding something more suitable are good ways to go. The OP has going through a few horns as described here in the last month and it might be a good idea to play music with what he has and make the most of what he has until he really knows what he wants.

[BopEuph]

You know, instead of doing a whole conversion into the valve block of the horn, what about having someone craft a replacement main tuning slide with a fourth valve addition much like the YEB-381? Yes, that's for a fifth valve, but it might be a much less obtrusive and cheaper alternative.

[2nd tenor]

I had a 3v Miraphone Perinet Standard for a long time. It didn't cost very much and it played fine. It was a good "second string" BBb horn. Mira made a similar horn with four valves. I don't know if it was better but, ya know, it had four valves so it was, like, one valve better. I kept looking for one of the 4v horns that had been dropped on its head so I could take the valve cluster out and glue it into the 3v horn. Boom! Horn that "goes to eleven." Never found that donor horn and eventually sold the 3v horn to a kid a a price his family could afford and it's all good.

Some suggestions for making slides easier to pull for tuning have been made and that's worth pursuing. However, it's a good point that either just living with it or selling it and finding something more suitable are good ways to go. The OP has going through a few horns as described here in the last month and it might be a good idea to play music with what he has and make the most of what he has until he really knows what he wants.

From what I read here and see elsewhere a three valve BBb does OK for the vast majority of stuff; if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it.

On a separate forum one guy asked what things people wished they had bought thirty years ago. Now there is some stuff that I wish I’d bought but more importantly I wish I’d bought into the idea of not always seeking bigger and better and instead bought into the idea of being happy with less and of learning how to use what I already had better.

[BopEuph]

You know, instead of doing a whole conversion into the valve block of the horn, what about having someone craft a replacement main tuning slide with a fourth valve addition much like the YEB-381? Yes, that's for a fifth valve, but it might be a much less obtrusive and cheaper alternative.

Honestly, I'd love to know if anyone's tried this. I wonder if it works? And if anyone actually had a YEB-321 and had the trigger made, since these 381 horns are hard to come by.