Embouchure shifts

[Mary Ann]

I have a pretty substantial embouchure shift at about Eb in the staff. I can play that set down to about Ab and have to play it above F above that Eb, because my low range embouchure doesn't focus above about Eb. F is ok if it is either fleeting or loud. How common is this? On horn, the cup is so small that any shifts are tiny just because of the size of the cup; the same "type" of shift on the tuba is just way bigger. What is occurring is that I am getting better at smooth transitions, but don't know if this is just something people get good at, or do you all use the same set from the pedals all the way up to E or F above middle C?

What wisdom can you impart, other than 94 pound ladies really aren't a good fit for the tuba? (Ah, but they are a pretty good fit for the Eb part in a brass band!!)

[arpthark]

Due to some embouchure issues I've been having since I started playing again after a hiatus, I recently had a Skype lesson with Doug Elliott (trombonist) and he talked about a lot of this stuff, including shifts. He was able to look at my face, identify my embouchure type and tell me what I should be doing based on my embouchure type. It's going to require unlearning old habits, but early attempts at taking some of his tips into consideration have me playing cleaner and more consistently across my range and working with about 50% less effort than I did before that lesson. His contact info is on his mouthpiece website. It was $150 for the hour, but I felt that was well spent. Nobody else really talks about this stuff. He called it something like "the anti-Song and Wind," which I chuckled at.

Contact info at the bottom of this page:

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/prices.html

[Tim Jackson]

In short and after 55 years of playing, I would say one of your two embouchures may be decent. I agree with the post above. Get a lesson with Doug. One can get by with shifts if you just want to bat out some softballs in an ensemble. If you want to master the instrument, it will take more study and work, A great embouchure (as you spread it across the entire range) sometimes feels really awkward in certain ranges because you're on new ground and using totally different muscles in that area. If you really like one of the embouchures you are using - start working to extend it upward or downward. Take a few weeks with it and see if things start to work. Having a great teacher observe your approach and coach you could really speed up your progress.


TJ

[bloke]

Trumpet/trombone players (I suspect) do shifts, YET they are miniscule/unnoticeable (to themselves as well as others) because they are so small.

Being that a tuba is 4 times as long (and many-many times as large) as a trumpet or trombone, our shifts tend to be observable by us and by others.

In the past, I had a "shift" that occurred around the middle of the "cash" register (bottom-of-staff F to second-space C).
I "cured" it with my own #2 profile rim (which I am NOT advertising here, but explaining how it helped me).
This rim is (compared to most tuba rims, though not to most trombone rims) narrow, it is not sharp-edged, and the outside edge falls away.
This allows this particular rim contour (along with the fact that it's made of stainless steel, and remains scuff-free) to slide across the facial indention (below the lips/above the chin) very gradually, without any pain, and without me noticing it - so that I can affect the shift gradually - rather than suddenly.

In the past, my workaround was to develop an embouchure position overlap of several pitches...but that's no longer necessary.

I'm not saying that there aren't tuba players who manage to play without a "shift", but (that having been said) I would like to watch an "I have no shift" tuba player play an A at the top of the staff and then - holding their position precisely - play two E's BELOW the staff with a "commercially-viable/marketable" sound/resonance (both pitches being shown in beginner band book fingering charts).

There are trombonists/trumpets with tremendous amounts of cachet and deserving (having earned) a great deal of respect...but (compared to trumpets/trombones, and their playing strategies) tubas are HUGE and GOOFY, and (individual) tuba players must do whatever it is that they must do...I even know one particular (wonderful) tuba player who (simply) cannot double-tongue, and taught themselves to flutter-tongue slowly (ex: 4XX - 6XX times per minute) so as to substitute flutter-tonguing for double-tonguing.

[gwwilk]

I don't have any answers, but I have a test for you. I often finish my warmup with a slur from the pedal BBb on my BBb tuba to the BBb above the staff and back down. Doing that will certainly reveal any embouchure shift you're using. Using your lips alone while staying in the same place on the mouthpiece is the key for me. YMMV. Now back to your regular programming from the experts...Oh, and I forgot 'fast air' at the top is also essential for me.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

"smooth transitions"

[djwpe]

Trumpet/trombone players (I suspect) do shifts, YET they are miniscule/unnoticeable (to themselves as well as others) because they are so small.

Trombone players certainly do shift, sometimes several times across the range. The strategy I’ve heard from some of the best is to have an overlap, So that you can avoid shifting mid phrase.

Don

[bloke]

I'm probably going to end up getting trolled again, because I've hinted that I might disagree with another person (a person I like just fine, and who has stayed in my home) who is widely known.

[kingrob76]

My biggest "hole" in my playing is range, especially the upper half / third of the instrument. I can improve this with hours (2-4) of daily practice but it never approaches easy, never. I'm 56 and not chasing tuba work like I used to so the practice time isn't happening. It's SIGNIFICANTLY easier for me when I lean forward and my jaw recedes a bit, almost aiming my air down in the mouthpiece. By upper half, I mean anything above a G in the top space of the bass clef staff (ok, maybe above that is less than half). Being able to securely play an Eb above the staff consistently would send me over the moon. My embouchure from basically the middle of the staff down works great. My problem is using two VERY different embouchures is simply not practical in a lot of instances. One or the other, sure.

Doug Elliott encouraged me to force my jaw forward to play higher, I never had a lot of luck with that. Another mouthpiece manufacturer encouraged me to use the same embouchure I would on a euphonium or trombone but for ME that really requires a very small mouthpiece. Doug is local to me so I should probably go see him and work on this specifically. I AM finding some success with security and rims that are a smaller diameter.

At the end of the day, none of the above matters as long as the music comes out right. I'll do whatever I have to make that happen, including doing it wrong from a technical standpoint.

[Tim Jackson]

Rob, lots of folks are trying to develop range by using one or two techniques. For me, it is a combination of many things. I had a life-changing phone lesson with Chris Olka a few years ago. We discussed a number of things having to do with range. Yes, one was bringing the jaw out - but it's good to understand a few things first. Bringing the jaw in to achieve a downward wind stream can cause the lips to overlap resulting in a distorting buzz. Try gradually moving the jaw out as you move upward so the wind continues straight toward the throat of the mouthpiece. Keeping the lips and teeth in line. Just this one thing increased my range immediately. Now, add some other things. Roll the lips inward gradually as you move up so less red is showing. Now... Be aware of the tongue. Try this - low C: the tongue is all the way back in the mouth, middle C: tongue is halfway to the gum line, high C: the tongue is at the teeth. Finally for your high Eb the oral cavity is getting very small as the tongue is getting close to the roof of the mouth and all the way forward. Increase the air - well understand this: Increasing the air with a small aperture helps one develop firm muscles which is good. But try getting the same feeling using less and less air - it is good to master playing soft and high when needed.

All the techniques above came from well-respected brass players. Sorry, I can't offer sources. Like I said - lots of players use one or two of these techniques. If you work at it you can combine all the elements and you will be playing high Eb easily. Actually, there's no reason you can't go an octave above that.

Back to shifts - the above-mentioned techniques are a very gradual shaping of the aperture so the airspeed & air pressure in the high range don't blow out the lips.

I practiced many hours a day during college - my range went up about one note a year. So I figured in a couple of years I would arrive at the destination. Wrong. I now truly believe it is all about understanding and not hours a day.

Take your time. It has taken me several years to bring all this together in one flowing shiftless embouchure.

TJ

[bloke]

1/ What sounds best ?
2/ What works best, doesn't cause issues, and doesn't hurt ?

------------

high range playing old oft-repeated/group-think saying:

"In order to be able to play high, you have to be able to play low."

no-nonsense realism:

"In order to play high, you have to play high - perhaps badly at first, and probably as long as possible - until rest is needed, and work on it until it is good, controlled, and flexible."

[acemorgan]

To be clear, when discussing "shift," are we talking about what some brass schools call "pivot?" Or is "shift" referring to sliding the mouthpiece?

[Pauvog1]

To be clear, when discussing "shift," are we talking about what some brass schools call "pivot?" Or is "shift" referring to sliding the mouthpiece?

Probably a bit of both, mostly a pivot

[arpthark]

Doug said to think of your embouchure as a ball and the mouthpiece as a socket in a swiveling ball-and-socket joint.

[andycat]

I have a pivot/shift. Covers about 4 notes depending on articulation/volume required. It's always worked for me.

[Mark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB-ULadgOIo

[kingrob76]

Rob, lots of folks are trying to develop range by using one or two techniques. For me, it is a combination of many things. I had a life-changing phone lesson with Chris Olka a few years ago. We discussed a number of things having to do with range. Yes, one was bringing the jaw out - but it's good to understand a few things first. Bringing the jaw in to achieve a downward wind stream can cause the lips to overlap resulting in a distorting buzz. Try gradually moving the jaw out as you move upward so the wind continues straight toward the throat of the mouthpiece. Keeping the lips and teeth in line. Just this one thing increased my range immediately. Now, add some other things. Roll the lips inward gradually as you move up so less red is showing. Now... Be aware of the tongue. Try this - low C: the tongue is all the way back in the mouth, middle C: tongue is halfway to the gum line, high C: the tongue is at the teeth. Finally for your high Eb the oral cavity is getting very small as the tongue is getting close to the roof of the mouth and all the way forward. Increase the air - well understand this: Increasing the air with a small aperture helps one develop firm muscles which is good. But try getting the same feeling using less and less air - it is good to master playing soft and high when needed.

All the techniques above came from well-respected brass players. Sorry, I can't offer sources. Like I said - lots of players use one or two of these techniques. If you work at it you can combine all the elements and you will be playing high Eb easily. Actually, there's no reason you can't go an octave above that.

Back to shifts - the above-mentioned techniques are a very gradual shaping of the aperture so the airspeed & air pressure in the high range don't blow out the lips.

I practiced many hours a day during college - my range went up about one note a year. So I figured in a couple of years I would arrive at the destination. Wrong. I now truly believe it is all about understanding and not hours a day.

Take your time. It has taken me several years to bring all this together in one flowing shiftless embouchure.

TJ

The structure of my mouth is ... interesting, according to one dentist. I have about a 1/4" overbite, the roof of my mouth is extremely high and my tongue is fairly large. I place the tip of my tongue against my bottom teeth and basically tongue with the middle of my tongue on the forward roof of my mouth. Tom Holtz once said that my head was "generously endowed" because it's pretty large. I have plenty to work on the next few months so once I get the muscles in fighting shape I'm going to work on the technical side of my embouchure, mostly out of curiosity.

[Mary Ann]

To be clear, when discussing "shift," are we talking about what some brass schools call "pivot?" Or is "shift" referring to sliding the mouthpiece?

I DID take a lesson from Doug a couple years ago, on horn (because he was convinced that dystonia is caused by using the wrong embouchure, and I have dystonia) and he said I was (heh) using the correct embouchure. If you have a lesson from him, it's pretty thorough, and I think absolutely everybody who is just getting started should take a lesson from him, because there are teachers out there, especially horn teachers, who will try to force a student into the "correct Farkas embouchure" whether or not it fits their physical makeup. But a student needs to have settled into an embouchure before this lesson is valuable.

@acemorgan --- Both. I definitely use a pivot on the horn; the high range "appears" if I tilt the leadpipe down, and the low range "appears" if the tilt is more straight out, and the tilt changes through the range. I can play a lot of range on the leg, but for the high range I have to take it off my leg to get the angle I need. Last night's rehearsal had high As in my part, as well as quite a few high Gs and high Fs. Even at the end of the rehearsal I could play those because they don't require much in the way of muscles, just leadpipe angle. And I can't describe what is going on inside the cup, either, except that there is almost zero pressure on my upper lip for the high range. But high A is my limit, with occasional Bbs, and I don't know why that is either. ("Horn A" is a concert D a 9th above concert middle C, and I consider myself a low player on horn, being able to play better down low than most amateurs, while having less high range than most amateurs.) However, there is also a difference in how much of each lip is in the cup, although it is subtle and easily accomplished. But never do I stray from the "very high set" position that Doug said I use; those motions are within that position as opposed to going from a high set to a low set. Whether my upper lip could be trained to vibrate in the below-the-staff range over time, I'll save for my next incarnation. You're heard me play both horn and tuba, so I guess you can judge how well this works for me.

On tuba I do the same things as on horn but they are a lot "bigger." Because I have horn chops, Eb above middle C is easy but does require some muscles, nothing that has ever gotten in the way in the parts I play either in brass band (Eb) or in the TE quartet (1st tuba.) Because I can't tilt a tuba like I can a horn, it is my head that tilts --- I tilt my head down / jaw in towards throat to free up my lower lip for the low range (gets the pressure from the lower rim of the cup off the lip,) and the opposite to get the pressure from the rim off my upper lip for the high range. I'm aware that its theoretically a bad idea to "switch lips" in the range, but -- at 74 and with the opportunities I'm delighted to have, it's a "whatever works and just get better at that."