Conn tubas: discussion thread

[arpthark]

Thought I might spur some discussion about Conn tubas and sousaphones of yore.

- What do you think they did well?

- What did they do not-so-great?

- What is your favorite model Conn?

- What is your least favorite model?

- Do they make any tubas today that are actually decent?

- etc etc

[matt g]

I like the 2J/3J of the past. Would’ve been great if they updated that a bit with a fifth rotor and re-released them.

The 5xJ needed a bit more R&D than UMI or whoever was willing to put in.

I still think the 5J is a solid option. Probably more so for middle school players.

I never cared much for the 2xJ lineup.

[arpthark]

I like the 2J/3J of the past. Would’ve been great if they updated that a bit with a fifth rotor and re-released them.

The 5xJ needed a bit more R&D than UMI or whoever was willing to put in.

I still think the 5J is a solid option. Probably more so for middle school players.

I never cared much for the 2xJ lineup.

Is the horn in your signature a proto-5XJ?

I think the 2J could be great with a few mods. I owned one that Norm Epley added a fifth valve to. I believe I bought it from Michael Bush (RIP).

Never played a 3J, but weren't they made in Elkhart (vs the 2J in Abilene)?

[matt g]

My horn is like an Eastman 632 prototype. Nearly identical profile.

I thought the 2J was Elkhart and the 3J was Abilene?

[Sousaswag]

Sousaphones. Particularly the models without short-action gimmick valves. 14K/32K, 38K, 40K? Even the real 36K horns are what I preferred towards the newer Yamaha plastic horns.

I like the way they sound, I like the way they play, and when they’re in good shape they’re some of the best.

[bloke]

As a little gig horn, I might like the 10J and it's predecessor the Pan American. This was a three valve top action model.
I had one for a short time, but really didn't see any point in keeping it.

I'm not sure if I ever played a honest to goodness "Donatelli" model in C, but I've played one that was the same size B-flat shortened to C, and that was a very good instrument... probably because someone did a really good job with that project.

After messing with the circuit lengths on a 28K E-flat sousaphone, I'm pretty sure that that was about the best E-flat sousaphone I've ever played, but not until I did what I did to the circuits.

I don't believe the 52J, 54J, and 56J "count" as Conn tubas.

The .656" and .658" bore Olds made and Abilene, TX made instruments appeal to some people, but I really feel like they are most appropriate for using in schools or for trombone players who double on tuba.

Conn made a remarkable number of tubas and number of models of tubas, the build quality was good - even at Abilene, but I don't see very many of them as suiting me very well.

Does anyone know whether this model had any sort of model number?

[arpthark]

@bloke, care to share the 28K circuitry alterations?

I have one, ca. 1941, and it's a pretty good instrument. I also have a 36K, and it's a little silly to have more than one sousaphone, so I'll have to make a decision at some point down the line. The paint job on the bell on the 36K is pretty remarkable, though.

28K + 36K (64K?) with Carl Fischer in between:



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20Js: As an adult, it's been a long time since I played a 20J or something in the 20J family. My biggest memory of these is when I was in a high school honor band as a freshman, and some other guy in the group from (to me) "some hick town" in Eastern Kentucky had a 20J and was playing these magnificent, resonant, in-tune false tones on it in "O Magnum Mysterium" to get the low Eb. The conductor stopped and said something like "that is the most organ-like tuba sound I have ever heard from a high school honor band." But now as an adult, I've always wanted to mess around on one for a while to see what all the fuss is about with these flawed BATs.

===

5xJs: Agreed that despite the name, 5xJ tubas are just cut-down Kings with a Conn engraving.

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2/3Js: The biggest barrier for me to really like these instruments is the unfortunately severe/overcompensatory valveset angle. It kills my wrist, even when these are in 45-degree "Harvey Phillips" position. Also, the ones I've played definitely need a bit of slide trimming to be able to be played in tune. My alma mater owned two 2Js that I played around on a bunch, I owned one 2J, and have played several others. (Never tried the 3J.) I feel like they (2Js) all just barely played up to A=440 with the tuning slide all the way in, and even then, featured a flat 3rd partial. 1 and 3 tuning slide circuits were too long, but I guess that was per Harvey Phillips' recommendations (playing it like a 3 valve horn plus the 4th valve as a register valve). However, I like the punchy sound and overall size of them.

===

sousaphones: from my experience, I think I like the Conn sousaphones more than Conn tubas. I have no experience with the more exotic models of tuba or sousaphone (jumbo sousaphones, Donatelli CCs, the multitude of pre-WWI and interwar models, incl. the recording bell CCs and the like), but I've really liked the 20K, my own personal 36K and the 14Ks I've played.

I'd like to glom on to @Sousaswag's point about short action valves being a gimmick. I like them a lot, but as Joe and others have intimated, some BDs think that the 20K is the holy grail of high school sousaphone, and that might not be the case. They're sort of interesting in this regard: the 20K is a legacy model that has kept the SA valves as a vestigial option "just 'cuz." No other company that I am aware of makes them, not even the makers of piston F tubas, whose players in collegiate settings seem to be doing lots of acrobatic/fast things with the tuba where SA valves would been seen as more of a boon, versus (what I am guessing is the large majority of 20K players) "oom-pah blaaat" high school marching bands. Does Conn still have an active patent on the offset SA valves?

===

Is the modern build quality really that bad?

[LeMark]

My mentor, Richard Murrow, is retired and doesn't play anymore, but there is Still just one tuba out of DOZENS that he has owned out that he will never sell, and that's his silver 3J.

[bloke]

As far as tubas in that 2-3-4-5J size range are concerned - and made by-or-for Conn, to me Harvey Phillips played instruments like that better than anyone else. I think I would have liked his sound even better had he played something else... or I might like those instruments better were their bore size stepped up to 11/16 inch (I'm thinking the Conn version of this bore size many decades ago was .690") or maybe even something like 18 mm.

clarification: I always "heard" the small Conn tuba in his sound. I'm not sure that I want to be able to recognize the make/model of instrument, simply from hearing an audio recording...ie. I sorta get that same type of sound, when playing those.

[Three Valves]

My experience with the 20j was less than stellar.

When I was 12, my skinny, weak arms could barely hold it up.

Now that I'm 62, my skinny, weak arms can barely hold it up.

My experience with the 36k has been stellar!

[Druzone]

My Conn 2J has very often been the perfect tool for the job: Playing in echoey Churches (which are most of them), tight Broadway pits (all of them), playing into a microphone 2 ft or less from the bell, many recording studio situations, Live standing/strolling jobs (Oktoberfest) etc. Many colleagues liked the sound. Having said that, my go-to preferred Tuba was/is my Rusk-cut York model 33.

I have a Conn 24/25J also. It's fun to play in my studio, but too big to bring to gigs. Same goes for my York Monster BBb, which I would have used for various repertoire if I had a full-time orchestra gig.

Now that I'm retired and older (and recovering from rotator cuff surgery), I'm glad to have the the Conn 2J!

[rodgeman]

The first tuba I owned was a Conn 20J. It was a tank. I had all the dents removed and a new lead pipe put in. Awesome playing tuba with a Helleberg 120 mouthpiece and one bit. It was like playing a howitzer. I think it is great on outdoor gigs. I never played the four valve one but imagine it would be pretty good.

Sorry they stopped making them.

Having said that they are very heavy and unwieldy. If I had a stationary stand for it would help playing it. I did love the ergonomics of it and could turn pages in music easily. I sold mine to get into rotary tubas and it's weight. My Eastman reminds me of it but is lighter and easier to manipulate.

[bort2.0]

Whatever that Conn sousaphone was that I bought/sold over the summer... that's what I like most about Conn. Those things are just the best, IMO. Solid as hell, look great, play great, sound great, and just last forever and ever.

But... I have zero use for a sousaphone, so that does me no good.

I don't mind the 5xJ tubas, but the valve section sticks out so far, it's not comfortable for me to hold, and it seems vulnerable to damage as well.

Always wanted to try a Conn Donatelli -- and have had numerous chances to buy one -- but for some reason, I always stop myself short. Something about it seems a little underwhelming visually. But maybe just the idea of "it's a midsize piston CC tuba", and there are a gazillion of those around. And going with something vintage -- albeit for the vintage sound -- also carries with it the vintage tuba issues.

My actual favorite Conn "thing" of all time is the Conn Geib mouthpiece that I owned for a while. Wish I could have afforded to keep it. Talk about a sweet sound! (but really difficult to play above a decent MF)

[Sousaswag]

When I say gimmick, I guess I just don’t get why they felt that the horn needed them. All it really does in my opinion is mess with valve action and response to a degree.

The regular valves aren’t all that heavy to me. I actually think the 20K’s are heavier than the regular action horns! Also, high school kids can’t figure out how to put them back into the casings

Anyway- Never played the 2XJ horns. I did play a 36?J with regular action front pistons. They’re just so heavy and unwieldy especially with the recording bells. It played just like a sousaphone. Nice sound, nice player, just hard to be comfortable with.

[Kirley]

The regular valves aren’t all that heavy to me. I actually think the 20K’s are heavier than the regular action horns! Also, high school kids can’t figure out how to put them back into the casings

20Ks are heavier than 14Ks. Everything after the valve section is larger. They use the same taper as the old 38K/40K.

Or were you only referring to the valves themselves? Because that's definitely true.

Speaking of 38K, that's my favorite Conn that I've ever played/owned. I have a really great one from 1924 in excellent condition. It sounds wonderful but it's very heavy. I only bring it to the "not-so-long" set gigs and only when I know we'll be either outside or with high ceilings. Otherwise, helicon.

[Sousaswag]

The regular valves aren’t all that heavy to me. I actually think the 20K’s are heavier than the regular action horns! Also, high school kids can’t figure out how to put them back into the casings

20Ks are heavier than 14Ks. Everything after the valve section is larger. They use the same taper as the old 38K/40K.

Or were you only referring to the valves themselves? Because that's definitely true.

Speaking of 38K, that's my favorite Conn that I've ever played/owned. I have a really great one from 1924 in excellent condition. It sounds wonderful but it's very heavy. I only bring it to the "not-so-long" set gigs and only when I know we'll be either outside or with high ceilings. Otherwise, helicon.

Yes, just the valves. That’s why I don’t understand the need for them to be shorter. Eliminate the long stroke for heavier valves? Why do that?

[matt g]

A lot of the original advertising for Conn short action valves on baritones and tubas was that it kept the throw as short or shorter than a trumpet to make it easier for players with small hands. That in addition to the offset stem placement to move the action closer.

On front action horns, the weight isn’t as noticeable in terms of impeding action. That being said, the only horn I’ve wanted with them was a horn Matt Walters built years ago.

[LeMark]

I love short action valves. Typically I stay away from piston tubas because of the throw distance on most horns. I can tolerate my york because the bore size is only 660ish.

My adams E3 euph has oval port, top sprung pistons and it's MAGICAL

[bisontuba]

A Conn 2J is for sale at Baltimore Brass...fyi...
Mark

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.