predomination/preference by country (Could this actually become an interesting B flat versus C thread?)

[bloke]

I'd be interested in seeing knowledgeable informed reports of which countries seem to prefer B-flat contrabass tubas in their orchestras, which ones prefer C contrabass tubas in their orchestras, and which countries don't seem to have a preference. I guess this would include countries in North America, South America, Australia, Europe, Asia, and any countries that would be considered first or second world on other continents (where paid/professional symphony orchestras exist).

If there has been a migration from one to the other over time in a particular country, that would be interesting as well. As just one example, I don't know much about Japan, but I'm thinking that it might possibly be that British traditions were predominant there in the past, where as now things seem to be going more towards American trends, which can even be evidenced in the types of tubas the Japanese manufactured when they first came on the scene versus the variety that they offer today. In other words, I believe (??) I'm seeing more use of C tubas in Japan, though I'm pretty ignorant,
>> Just because I mentioned one specific country about which I know little, please don't make this thread about that one country. I would like to encourage the scope of this thread to be worldwide..


As far as bass tubas are concerned, how about someone else encouraging a separate thread, so as to keep this one sort of on topic?

[MikeS]

In the Balkans, both Kronoslav Babic of the Zagreb Philharmonic and Kornel Papista of the Belgrade Philharmonic look to be using Bflat Fafners as contrabasses.

(Apologies for the lack of proper diacritics in the names)

[bloke]

This is not a specific/informative response...but - in various parts of continental Europe - I'm seeing (videos, etc.) a bunch of Fafners.

[tubazach07]

I lived in Japan for 7 and a half years and am headed back for another 3 years this summer. Japan are like us in that they use both BBb and CC. Elementary and through high school use BBb and then switch to CC if they want to do a career in music. Southeast Asians countries that I have toured who are considered “1st world” use CC like Hong Kong, South Korea,Singapore, Taiwan. The more less developed countries use BBb. When I toured the Philippines I found a school that used BBb sousaphones left behind by US army after WWII. I don’t know how or why they got left only that they had army markings on them and were from the 40s or 50s. When I toured Cambodia I found they had cheap Chinese tubas in the key of G.

[2bahawk]

in elementary, high school, and college the BBb predominated. I did play an Eb for a while. Decided I only want to learn one set of fingerings. The man I bought my latest horn from said that C predominate amount professional players. I do NOT know how the F fits in. Disclaimer: I am a hobby player working to improve my skill.

From the Snack Capital of the USA....

[jtm]

… I do NOT know how the F fits in. ...

F is for “fun”!

[jtm]

… Japan are like us in that they use both BBb and CC. Elementary and through high school use BBb and then switch to CC if they want to do a career in music.

Why does anyone (place, country, including the U.S.) do this? If CC is better for career musicians, why aren’t they in schools? It’s almost like the split exists just to sell more tubas to college kids. Or maybe it’s gatekeeping.

Maybe the better question is why did big BBb tubas and sousaphones become the thing that middle school and high school kids play instead of Eb tubas that would be easier for kids to handle? Are there places where Eb and F are normal starter tubas, then you pick up a contrabass if you “want to do a career”?

[bloke]

Well, don't ask the beer drinker - who has moved to wine - which beer is best. Everyone knows my recent story which I've told way too many times here about having waited for about a decade to get a particular B-flat tuba and no longer owning any C tubas (after playing C instruments for 50 years).
So much of the classical repertoire is Germanic, and all German orchestral tuba players play very large B-flat tubas - as do a whole bunch of players in surrounding countries. They don't play the really limited production model that I play, but several of them play a very similar model of which quite a few have been made...ie. I see quite a few continental European orchestral players who play Melton 195 tubas - with some of the others playing 197 tubas.

It just occurred to me that - if I'm going to be playing their music, it would break up the half century of monotony for me to be playing it on their tubas.

It's not a perfect analogy - particularly since later in my own life more C models have come out that are easier to play in tune, but I have sort of always looked at C instruments as being a bit more elegant version and concept of the early American 20th century so-called "monster" E-flat tubas which were designed to sort of pass as contrabass tubas - while really not being contrabass, and suffering from intonation quirks, due to trying to be (via being oversized) what they really weren't. Over the past couple of years, every time I've picked up a C instrument - whether it was just about as large as my big B-flat (or one size down or two sizes down or whatever), they sound "hollow" to me, and - admittedly - I have to do something with my mouth to tease them into sounding a little less so, but they still don't offer (for lack of a better term) the "B-flat resonance".

... now if that doesn't trigger every professional American tuba player and serious college student, I don't know what will...oh yeah... and 21st century players of early 20th century monster E-flats, as well

[jonesbrass]

Maybe the better question is why did big BBb tubas and sousaphones become the thing that middle school and high school kids play instead of Eb tubas that would be easier for kids to handle? Are there places where Eb and F are normal starter tubas, then you pick up a contrabass if you “want to do a career”?

This was the case when we were on tour in Hungary a couple of decades back. They (at that time, at least) started young tuba players on F tuba, and added the BBb later when the player was physically larger. IMHO, the bands lacked nothing for the use of a bass vice contrabass.

[bloke]

I've always wondered about eastern Europe, old-old Russian traditions, and Russian/eastern European similarities/differences.

As an example (and who knows if it was "a" player - at that time - or MOST players at that time) but it's play as day that Scheherazade was written to accommodate a 3-valve E-flat tuba.

Whoops...I'm talking about bass tubas, aren't I?

[JC2]

In Australia all of the pro orchestral players are primarily using C and F Tuba.
C tubas across the country are a mix of York copies, couple of rotor PT6 and Thors.
F tubas mostly German style instruments like PT-10 or Miraphone Belcanto.
A smaller number also play German style Bb for the appropriate repertoire but not very often.

[bloke]

BIG SIDEBAR:

not argumentative (as I was previously of the VERY SAME mentality - and understand that mentality), but I'm curious as to which pieces others consider "B-flat appropriate" (sure...a "list").

Some of my friends (with full-time and even "big" jobs) have acquired big B-flat tubas to use on - apparently - a "list" of pieces...but I wonder it the "list" is Prokofiev 5, Romeo & Juliet, Symphonic Metamorphosis, and maybe only 10-20 more big works (??). Also, I'm noticing that their big B-flats are instruments that (likely-if-not-surely) cost them considerably less money than their C instruments (ok...candidly: instruments I would personally not choose to acquire). Of course, the German/central European orchestral players contrabass list would have B-flat chosen for - well - everything as appropriate.

again: Please don't misinterpret awkward or seemingly-argumentative tone for actually being argumentative. I'm really curious as to how (current/working/busy orchestral C tuba players view B-flats, and - as long a list as any would care to type out in a reply) and what working C players would view as B-flat appropriate orchestral works.

[JC2]

Generally from what I've seen, the BBb will come out for the bigger German/Russian repertoire.

-Later Wagner
-Some of the Bruckner's 7, 8, 9 (with some parts on F)
-Prokofiev
-Certain Mahler
-Certain Strauss works
-Certain Shostakovich

There's not really any hard rules on using Bb on these works. Depends what the player feels like using that week or if the conductor wants it. Some orchestras have the full set of German instruments (Rotor trumpets, German trombones etc) so it then becomes more appropriate.

I was actually very lucky to have a Rudy Meinl 5/4 Bb, 4/4 CC and 4/4 F borrowed from an orchestra I was working with the past 12 months. I may do a little review if I have the time.

I'm very much a beginner with the large German Bb tuba so I would keep that in mind. Some thoughts though comparing my usual 6/4 York copy vs Rudy Meinl 5/4.

The CC tuba has a very even sound from top to bottom, legato playing is much cleaner and smoother, technical facility is easier and clearer. Generally more precision and less imperfections in the sound. I've actually used the CC quite well in the pit and smaller orchestrations. It's also great for pops repertoire like the movie adaptions where you may have to play occasional top D or E on the big tuba. If I absolutely had to, I could make it work in a brass quintet. It might sound a bit big but the precision would be acceptable to me. The sound is wide, resonant and warm. The sound to me projects a bit more 'through' the orchestra rather than blending into the bottom the way the Bb seems to.

The Rudy Meinl 5/4 is an amazing instrument. It's got that deep, dark 'purring' sound. It's surprisingly quite easy to play. I never used it in the orchestra but I enjoyed warming up on it at home when I'd left my CC at the hall. I found it a joy to spend time playing long tones on it, just to get entranced in the sound for a while. Whilst it is an amazing instrument, I felt it is a bit more specialised in what applications you could use it for. I would have to accept a certain amount of imperfection in technical precision. I challenge anyone to play an ascending chromatic scale on rotor Bb without any bumps or dirt. Very difficult! (at least for me). Playing in the bottom of an orchestra it's going to blend nicely, but it's the more exposed/ thinly orchestrated passages that will be challenging. I wouldn't be able to play it in the pit or most pops concerts and definitely not brass quintet. That's not a criticism of the instrument, but it shows you what it's really intended for - playing large romantic orchestral music. It's worth noting also that every time I spent an hour warming up on the Rudy, going back to the CC afterwards felt like I was playing an F tuba - so much easier. My new job in the Airforce band actually has a really good 5/4 Bb so I may very well change my opinion after I become a more competent Bb player.

Just my thoughts! Not intending to speak for everyone.

[bloke]

I had a great playing Rudy model "5/4" (6/4l C with of course 5th valve and second slide trigger. I will admit that - even though it mostly sounded like a Rudy - it did offer more resonance than most six quarter size tubas. Having also previously owned the 3 and 4 sizes of those, it was by far the most in tune of the three sizes as well.