What was your favorite horn in the elephant room at the army workshop?

[RoseCityInstruments]

Speaking of which,
(Rick Denney’s “…not sure how well the dealers did overall…”),
I’ve always wanted to ask this question since I went to my first conference many years ago:

Do the instrument companies/dealers REALLY sell enough stock to make it worth their time and effort and everything else to go to a conference after factoring time away from the shop, travel/gas/transportation costs, etc., plus all their competition there?
I’m especially thinking of any dealers that might’ve flown themselves and their products to the conference in Spain this past year.

Or is it more of an exposure thing so that they get their name out there?

Because at any of the conferences I’ve been to, ITEC,
ITEC Regionals, TMEA, Army Band Tuba/Euphonium Workshop, there seemed to me to be a lot more people in the elephant room(s) interested in blasting Ride at fffff on the absolute biggest horn they could get their hands on, (and sounding like it was coming out nonstop from both ends of a very sick cow doing it ), than there were people seriously looking to buy a tuba or a euphonium, or anything else, for that matter.

For anybody who knows about the economics and marketing sides of this, thanks in advance for an answer.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am happy to share my thoughts with you all regarding this. While I may be new to the retail world, I've been around the tuba community for 20 plus years, as a player, technician, product manager at Conn-Selmer, and college professor. I can only share what I know, but I think my background is unique to this question.

There are different types of conferences and exhibits, each with different purposes. There are conferences for growing demand (NAMM, Midwest, TMEA, other state Music Ed Association conferences, etc.) It's almost impossible to quantify sales from these conferences, but it is part of the manufacturer or dealer's image to be seen at these events, continue to strengthen and build relationships with their customers, and show of some unique things that they are trying to promote that year. In recent years, some of these conferences (Midwest and NAMM especially), the costs of booth space have gotten so astronomical, that many manufacturers and dealers are scaling down their booths, or even eliminating them at all.

Conferences like ITEA, Army Band Tuba Workshop, and other shows like that are more likely to be conferences that sell things. The Army Band one is a great example, there is no sales tax on sales conducted on a military base, so that saves customers tons of money on tax and shipping as well. I think most everyone did pretty well at this year's conference. Myself, being brand new to the retail world in January, sold a fair amount of mouthpieces, lubricants and even a euphonium. It was great to be there to showcase myself, the new brand to the US, and to just be back around tuba players. Beats the heck out of being a financial advisor, which was my previous occupation.

The main point of all is this is keeping your brand, instruments, vision, name in front of people. For me, I am trying to make myself a center for the west coast. That means I need to be thinking about events in my territory that will help with that, such as the NWRTEC in Boise that I will be exhibiting at. Me going to another regional tuba conference doesn't make sense right now, the costs of bringing instruments there and the likelihood that I will sell enough to recoup my expenses make it a challenge. However, it's important to understand that while not everything has to make a profit immediately, you do need to do things that help grow visibility and demand for your products/services.

Hope this helps, happy to chime in more as well!

[Rick Denney]

...
Speaking of which,
(Rick Denney’s “…not sure how well the dealers did overall…”),
I’ve always wanted to ask this question since I went to my first conference many years ago:

Do the instrument companies/dealers REALLY sell enough stock to make it worth their time and effort and everything else to go to a conference after factoring time away from the shop, travel/gas/transportation costs, etc., plus all their competition there?
I’m especially thinking of any dealers that might’ve flown themselves and their products to the conference in Spain this past year.

Or is it more of an exposure thing so that they get their name out there?

Because at any of the conferences I’ve been to, ITEC,
ITEC Regionals, TMEA, Army Band Tuba/Euphonium Workshop, there seemed to me to be a lot more people in the elephant room(s) interested in blasting Ride at fffff on the absolute biggest horn they could get their hands on, (and sounding like it was coming out nonstop from both ends of a very sick cow doing it ), than there were people seriously looking to buy a tuba or a euphonium, or anything else, for that matter.

For anybody who knows about the economics and marketing sides of this, thanks in advance for an answer.

It seemed to me that Berlioz was victim of choice at this conference. I heard Faust being damned repeatedly, and also fantasy interpretations of Fantastique. I only heard one Ride, and though it was rhythmically challenged (as usual), at least it wasn't played at blastissimo. There was some "I caaaan't play looooow", too.

In my case, over the years I have bought at least $20K in tubas at the Army conference, and that's just me buying used/demo-discount stuff (though one of those was a Hirsbrunner that sells for more used than many new tubas, it is true). I've probably spent more than many, but I can think of folks who have spent more than me at that conference by a long shot. And that does not include mouthpieces, music, instrument stands, and other accessories, for which that conference has been my main source. (I've also spent at least another $10K in tubas at other conferences, particularly TMEA back in the day.)

Also, lots of premiere-band military guys teach students on the side, and bring those students to the show to select instruments or at least try them out. Many of them buy something there--I've seen lots of quiet conversations between parents and the deal-makers for each of the shops. That does not include what the military guys themselves might buy, and they tend to the pro-grade instruments. And there are economic advantages to buying at the conference.

I'm sure there are sales that happen after the conference as a result of exposure in the conference, which alone would make the show worth it, but I suspect that the companies coming to the show cover their costs more often than not. Andy already spoke to the issue of building brand value and image.

Rick "not mentioning the instruments others have bought with my enablin<<<<<<<<prompting" Denney

[aarongsmith]

Eastman
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

This is the EBB622?

It was indeed.

Eastman
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

This is the EBB622?

I’m pretty sure it’s the 825VG, but I didn’t study the tag and I don’t know their stuff on sight. I’ll check.

And, @humBell, there is always room for good old tubas that fit impecunious budgets for adult amateurs, but advance marketing helps with them. The temptation is to focus on military pros and the college kids that come to the workshop, but I bet we amateurs carry our own weight in sales.

Rick “not sure how well the dealers did overall” Denney

There was one there that Mike (I think) bought that was excellent, but that's Eastman's 5/4-ish "GR51." Like I said the change to the rotax on that horn took it from good to great imho.

Also, glad you like the Miraphone! Sorry we had the paddle swapped around, but glad it was easy to remedy.

As a dealer, I did okay. I paid for my time there and made enough contacts. Some people expressed a significant amount of interest in some of my instruments which could me sales down the road. I would say it's 30% sales and 70% exposure for me at least since we are not known as a "tuba shop"

[hrender]

Eastman
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

This is the EBB622?

It was indeed.

Excellent, thank you. I had not heard of this horn before now.

[Rick Denney]

Hi, Aaron, I try not to use names of people I've only just met, or who might not want to be outed as being associated with me But since you outed yourself...

The finger-paddle thing is the sort of mistake a good brass tech might make if they are less practiced on rotary tubas. It still worked, of course, but it looked wrong once I got it home. I didn't even notice it when I was trying it out or I'd have tried to talk you down some more because of it

I'm confused about the bigger Eastmans but it seems to me anything modeled on the GR51 won't much compete with the 534, which is a smallish 4/4 instrument. The 534 is a great tuba--better than the King it models in my view--and I love mine. I haven't compared it side-by-side with a .750-bore Yorkalike, but I'm thinking they serve different markets. I used my 534 when I played with the Tubameisters in December, mostly because it presented well, was easy to play while standing, and was easy to fit in the car for the long trip. When I listened to the recording of that performance, which someone had posted on Facebook, the difference in tone concept between that horn (with me playing it) and Ray on his 186-5U CC that he's been perfecting for half a century was not subtle.

The 622 is a piston tuba? That's not what I tried and not what I was comparing it against. It's also not what our friend bought.

But, of course, I totally misread Hal's question

Rick "the tuba in question was substantially larger" Denney

[hrender]

Yeah, the EBB825*g is the GR51-ish horn from what I understand. It's been around for a while. The EBB622 is new to me. I'd be curious to hear about its design goals.

[RoseCityInstruments]

Second place would be a close race between the Siermann Arthur F (I think? The silver f they had) and the 2250 buffet brought along.

6 valve rotary F - Arthur
5 Piston valve F - Mars

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it! Still trying to keep these model names straight myself.

[aarongsmith]

Yeah, the EBB825*g is the GR51-ish horn from what I understand. It's been around for a while. The EBB622 is new to me. I'd be curious to hear about its design goals.

It's based on the research they have been doing into the York tubas. It uses the same piston valve block as the 832 but has all hydroformed bows instead of the 832's sheet brass bows. It's a little heavier, a little taller, and sturdier feeling horn than the 534, which has always felt light to me. I think it won't suffer as much from the pancaking effect that the thinner bell on the 534 is prone to from rough handling.

I did not get to really get into it with Chris or Ryan, but the horn is a definite improvement to me.

[thedancingsousa]

Second place would be a close race between the Siermann Arthur F (I think? The silver f they had) and the 2250 buffet brought along.

6 valve rotary F - Arthur
5 Piston valve F - Mars

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it! Still trying to keep these model names straight myself.

Then yes! The Arthur was the one I liked, then. I definitely preferred it over the rotary F tubas that Eastman brought along. Nice big sound without feeling difficult to play.

I wasn't much a fan of their nee "professional f tubas." I will say, though, that the eastman 834 cc did edge both the 2250 and your Arthur out of second place by a nudge. That thing was gorgeous.

[Rick Denney]

Yeah, the EBB825*g is the GR51-ish horn from what I understand. It's been around for a while. The EBB622 is new to me. I'd be curious to hear about its design goals.

It's based on the research they have been doing into the York tubas. It uses the same piston valve block as the 832 but has all hydroformed bows instead of the 832's sheet brass bows. It's a little heavier, a little taller, and sturdier feeling horn than the 534, which has always felt light to me. I think it won't suffer as much from the pancaking effect that the thinner bell on the 534 is prone to from rough handling.

I did not get to really get into it with Chris or Ryan, but the horn is a definite improvement to me.

I do agree that the 20" bell on the 534 is subject to pancake damage, and I think the tuba would be just as good with an 18" bell, and maybe better. This was the same issue that led to different bell diameters on the Conn 52/56J

I spent some time remembering some details. The EBB825GV is not like a GR51--the outer branches seem to me significantly larger, though I've never compared them side by side. Its bell is over an inch bigger in diameter and so is the throat. It plays like a German 5/4, but not quite a kaiser. Both of them that I have played seemed wonderful to me, actually, and sound their best with a larger Geibish mouthpiece like a Sellmansberger Orchestra Grand with a Symphony backbore, such as what I use on my Hirsbrunner. The newest version has the Rotax-type valves, and perhaps because of that weighs noticeably more than the previous version.

It doesn't have the power sound of a true kaiser like my HBS193, a Cerveny 601, an Alex 164, a B&S 104, a Miraphone 190, or a Meinl-Weston Fafner. Those instruments are all quite different from each other, of course, but share their tall-bell directionality and big-tuba amplification. I would suggest that it's more like a Miraphone 496 or 191, but I found it better to play than either of those (Doc's preference notwithstanding ).

I did not try the piston Eastmans or anything smaller--just didn't get to them. I already have a 534 that I am quite pleased with.

Rick "depending on mood uses a Sellmansberger Symphony--2-piece version--on the 534" Denney

[buyten]

I think for me, the standout in the elephant room was definitely the Eastman EBB825GV. It had a bigger bell and throat than the GR51-ish models, which gave it that full, rich sound without feeling unwieldy. I loved how it handled with a larger mouthpiece, and even though it weighed a bit more than the 534, it had a solidity and projection that made it really satisfying to play.

I also really appreciated the Arthur F that was there big, resonant sound, but still easy to control. For me, it came down to versatility: I could see using the Eastman for larger ensemble work, and the Arthur for more soloistic or chamber settings. The workshop really highlighted how different designs affect playability and tone, and it was fun to compare them side by side in a room full of experienced players.

Overall, it was a great chance to get hands-on time with horns I wouldn’t normally encounter, and it made me rethink some of my preferences for bell size and valve feel.

[bloke]

It's even expensive for someone like me to drive up there in my own full size van jammed full of stuff, burn 1800 miles of full size van gas (even at post-2024 prices), stay for free at my brother's house, not get repair work done back at the shop, buy some restaurant food (even at the reasonable bowling alley prices), pay the fee to display (which is reasonable) along with some other miscellaneous expenses. There are even some tiny little (??) considerations including the stress it puts on our pets.

With the larger stores, not getting their repairs done, renting a big truck, bringing along several employees, housing all those people and feeding them, and all that stuff, their expenses are quite considerable.

My markups on instruments are low and quite competitive, but even if others prices are higher, none of them are anywhere close to 100%. If I sell an instrument and make a few hundred bucks, maybe I'm sort of close to being covered. I believe the other larger concerns probably need to hope to sell two or three instruments minimum to break even...

... but the main idea is probably facetime with real people and becoming human beings in front of potential customers, more than hoping to sell a whole bunch of things at instrument shindigs. That said, even establishing an actual human relationship with a customer these days doesn't really lead to all that much customer loyalty. People are going to get online and if a $12,000 product is offered for $12,226 on one site and $11, 773 on another site, customers are probably not going to bother to call and talk to the place that's 4XX more dollars more and ask for a price match or to beat price, they're just going to pull the trigger on the lower price online. Further, almost no one is going to drive to where the tubas are at the brick and mortar locations and play them. The overwhelming majority of people buy pictures combined with printed rhetoric.

[Three Valves]

…buy some restaurant food (even at the reasonable bowling alley prices),

The double cheeseburger combo meal with onion rings and a cola is nearly $15 now.

[bloke]

I probably should have put "less unreasonable"...
...but - were they to charge much less, they would probably go in the red.

Hey...Who printed all those trillions between 2021 and 2024?

This PRIVATE bank did.

[Rick Denney]

…buy some restaurant food (even at the reasonable bowling alley prices),

The double cheeseburger combo meal with onion rings and a cola is nearly $15 now.

That’s not high. I pay that much at Chik-fil-a for about half the caloric intake. I paid 11-something for the chicken sandwich combo—4 bucks less than Chik-fil-a. Of course the long wait and poor service at the bowling alley is free, along with the sometimes-entertaining floor show.

Rick “noting that Bloke attached ‘reasonable’ to price not quality” Denney

[bloke]

Those hamburgers have always been very good.
I've I'm stuck at a venue (military base, stadium, arena, gated nose-pickin' festival, whatever) that's a darn good post-hyperinflation era price.

[aarongsmith]

Yeah, the EBB825*g is the GR51-ish horn from what I understand. It's been around for a while. The EBB622 is new to me. I'd be curious to hear about its design goals.

It's based on the research they have been doing into the York tubas. It uses the same piston valve block as the 832 but has all hydroformed bows instead of the 832's sheet brass bows. It's a little heavier, a little taller, and sturdier feeling horn than the 534, which has always felt light to me. I think it won't suffer as much from the pancaking effect that the thinner bell on the 534 is prone to from rough handling.

I did not get to really get into it with Chris or Ryan, but the horn is a definite improvement to me.

I do agree that the 20" bell on the 534 is subject to pancake damage, and I think the tuba would be just as good with an 18" bell, and maybe better. This was the same issue that led to different bell diameters on the Conn 52/56J

I spent some time remembering some details. The EBB825GV is not like a GR51--the outer branches seem to me significantly larger, though I've never compared them side by side. Its bell is over an inch bigger in diameter and so is the throat. It plays like a German 5/4, but not quite a kaiser. Both of them that I have played seemed wonderful to me, actually, and sound their best with a larger Geibish mouthpiece like a Sellmansberger Orchestra Grand with a Symphony backbore, such as what I use on my Hirsbrunner. The newest version has the Rotax-type valves, and perhaps because of that weighs noticeably more than the previous version.

It doesn't have the power sound of a true kaiser like my HBS193, a Cerveny 601, an Alex 164, a B&S 104, a Miraphone 190, or a Meinl-Weston Fafner. Those instruments are all quite different from each other, of course, but share their tall-bell directionality and big-tuba amplification. I would suggest that it's more like a Miraphone 496 or 191, but I found it better to play than either of those (Doc's preference notwithstanding ).

I did not try the piston Eastmans or anything smaller--just didn't get to them. I already have a 534 that I am quite pleased with.

Rick "depending on mood uses a Sellmansberger Symphony--2-piece version--on the 534" Denney

I did not mean that the 825VG felt heavier. It feels close to the older version I had on my booth. I'll have one in store soon and can offer a comparison more directly, provided I have both horns still.

As for the EBB825VG versus a GR51, I agree. I should have compared it to the GR55. Which may have been my intention, but I get those two mixed up. It's also certainly not a kaiser but is more in the "German" sound profile.

I was referring to the EBB622 (new piston Bb) versus the EBB534. Apologies if that was unclear. I agree that a slightly smaller bell, would be my choice on the 534, but I would say that about every Eastman 4/4. I prefer the sound profile of a 18" bell, but I understand why they went the direction they did.
I also have an EBB622 coming that I may have the chance to compare directly to a EBB534 in a controlled environment.
If people are interested in a comparison between any of these, I may be able to convince our marketing guys to shoot something.

[PlayTheTuba]

...

I also have an EBB622 coming that I may have the chance to compare directly to a EBB534 in a controlled environment.
If people are interested in a comparison between any of these, I may be able to convince our marketing guys to shoot something.

If it's not to much work I'd be interested. Since, at a distance I didn't pay enough attention to notice the EBB622 and I didn't look closely at the tags.

Most of my tooting time was spent on Eb tubas, and the sprinkling of F's. And the Miraphone 494 / Vintage King BBb.

[Three Valves]

Of course the long wait and poor service at the bowling alley is free, along with the sometimes-entertaining floor show.

Rick “noting that Bloke attached ‘reasonable’ to price not quality” Denney

I got there just before the rush.

Did you check out the guy that looked like Little Richard and Carmen Miranda’s grandson?

[PlayTheTuba]

I am currently at NERTEC 2026, hosted by Boston University!

Special shout-out to the George Mason University Booth too ...


I did super duper briefly try the Eastman EBB 622 and revisit the EBB 534.

Sadly, despite being there, didn't have time to spend actual time with the horns.

I will say the 622 felt better or nicer to play than the 534. But I can't really elaborate further than that.

The concert was fabulous (as of March 06, 2026) too!