My Hang-Ups (valves, that is)

[Worth]

I learn so much from these discussions! It’s so much fun to keep on learning new things at my age!

Exactly why I am here, maybe not posting much but always listening and learning.

[bloke]

In my experience, new instruments come with oil that's just a little thicker than valve oil, but only a bit. It's just thick enough to hang around for a few months in a warehouse, and usually it's easily thinned out by putting a petroleum base ("valve") oil in the instrument before playing it... and a whole bunch of people who read all the crap that I post know that I just use lamp oil, because it's pennies an ounce, only lasts a few hours, evaporates, and I add oil again the very next time I play the instrument. That works out really well for me.

Otherwise, sloshing a solvent through a new instrument (working the valves vigorously) certainly dissolve the oils they use in the way that you explain. Lacquer thinners (etc.) aren't going to hurt cured lacquer, even if a little bit of a solvent touches the outside of the instrument. Gasoline is probably the cheapest thing that could be used as a solvent, but since only a tiny amount needs to be used, there's no point in using something that stinks.

Taking the rotors out of a tuba or horn is probably a slightly better way to clean out storage oil, but honestly I've never found a need for it. It just doesn't seem to be a problem. What's worse is when new instruments are put on display prior to being sold - either in a store or at a show, people spit in them for two or three days (or months - if a brick and mortar store), and then those horns are allowed to sit. If they had a whole bunch of oil sloshed through them right afterwards each time they were played by non-buyers, it might not be a problem, but new instruments that are subject to that sort of treatment end up with scale around the valves and end up badly - what I call - "spit stuck". When I have new JP instruments drop-shipped from the warehouse to customers, the demo ones are the only ones that I won't drop-ship, unless a customer communicates with me enough to convince me that they know how to handle this issue.

[Mary Ann]

I found that lighter fluid, which is purchasable in small amounts, would clear any and all oily gunk out of rotary valves. But then you have to re-oil with the right stuff. Before I quit using that red Selmer slide goo that always gets in the valves, I had to use lighter fluid fairly frequently to wash it out.

[Mary Ann]

Can we go on to clanky valves? It seems my recently re-acquired Star has basically had the crap beaten out of it, and the valves which were never ever noisy before, are now clanky. Oil is not fixing the problem and the noise is both when they hit the down position and when they come back to the up position. There were new bumpers last August but that doesn't mean they were properly done. Do I need to take it to someone who knows what they are doing, or am I missing somewhere I ought to put the oil? They are still sealing fine; if I block the vent hole they pop when the slides are pulled.
My (french) horn has never gotten clanky valves over the 20 years I've had it.

[bloke]

Can we go on to clanky valves? It seems my recently re-acquired Star has basically had the crap beaten out of it, and the valves which were never ever noisy before, are now clanky. Oil is not fixing the problem and the noise is both when they hit the down position and when they come back to the up position. There were new bumpers last August but that doesn't mean they were properly done. Do I need to take it to someone who knows what they are doing, or am I missing somewhere I ought to put the oil? They are still sealing fine; if I block the vent hole they pop when the slides are pulled.
My (french) horn has never gotten clanky valves over the 20 years I've had it.

If it's not linkage, it's vertical play in the rotor bodies - which is the single most common cause of rotary valve noise.
If you are lucky, the bearings just need to be tapped back in. If not quite as lucky, the outside edges of the undersides of the bearings might need to be shaved down a couple of thousands of an inch.
Otherwise, there are those "fail safe" screws in the centers of the back caps, but that's really not the right way to fix the problem.
Sometimes, there's enough green crap between the bearings and rotors to actually push them out just from that stuff forming and causing a vertical rattle.
Not going to type all the typical crap here that others will type (about checking screws and such). I have to believe that you've already done that.

[DonO.]

Is this the NStar that used to be yours and you bought back? If so, is this a problem that developed after you sold it? Are you certain it’s the valves making the noise, not the linkages? Sometimes linkages get worn and noisy, parts have to be replaced. I assume you’re oiling all the linkage pivot points? They need something more viscous than valve oil. Rotors are complicated. Back when I was young and stupid I used to disassemble my own to maintain them; now, I would take them to “someone who knows what they’re doing”.

[DonO.]

Can we go on to clanky valves? It seems my recently re-acquired Star has basically had the crap beaten out of it, and the valves which were never ever noisy before, are now clanky. Oil is not fixing the problem and the noise is both when they hit the down position and when they come back to the up position. There were new bumpers last August but that doesn't mean they were properly done. Do I need to take it to someone who knows what they are doing, or am I missing somewhere I ought to put the oil? They are still sealing fine; if I block the vent hole they pop when the slides are pulled.
My (french) horn has never gotten clanky valves over the 20 years I've had it.

If it's not linkage, it's vertical play in the rotor bodies - which is the single most common cause of rotary valve noise.
If you are lucky, the bearings just need to be tapped back in. If not quite as lucky, the outside edges of the undersides of the bearings might need to be shaved down a couple of thousands of an inch.
Otherwise, there are those "fail safe" screws in the centers of the back caps, but that's really not the right way to fix the problem.
Sometimes, there's enough green crap between the bearings and rotors to actually push them out just from that stuff forming and causing a vertical rattle.
Not going to type all the typical crap here that others will type (about checking screws and such). I have to believe that you've already done that.

My old Meinl-Weston had vertical play, and a repair person who “knew what he was doing” drilled a hole in the center of each back cap, threaded the holes, and installed those small screws I think you are calling “fail safe”. It did solve the problem. I was too ignorant to know this wasn’t the “right” way.

[DonO.]

Can we go on to clanky valves? It seems my recently re-acquired Star has basically had the crap beaten out of it, and the valves which were never ever noisy before, are now clanky. Oil is not fixing the problem and the noise is both when they hit the down position and when they come back to the up position. There were new bumpers last August but that doesn't mean they were properly done. Do I need to take it to someone who knows what they are doing, or am I missing somewhere I ought to put the oil? They are still sealing fine; if I block the vent hole they pop when the slides are pulled.
My (french) horn has never gotten clanky valves over the 20 years I've had it.

I think the reason French horns seldom get noisy is because of the string linkage. They don’t have all the mechanical levers which can often be a noise culprit.

[bloke]

If he was good enough at his craft to center those screws perfectly on those caps, he was a pretty damn good repair guy.

Actually doing an easy remanufacturer (as previously described) on the bearings - though - is the better way to remove vertical play. Rotary valves - overall - aren't as rebuildable as piston valves, due to all of the complex surfaces that contact other surfaces. Those that are really good at it only do pretty damn good work at best, due to this reality. To make rotary valves like new again, the really right way to do it - and I'm going to raise the ire of some people who have skills that I don't have - is to unsolder the worn valves and casings and replace them with nice new really well-made valves and casings.
Almost always, really well made brand new machinery is going to be better than really well made rebuilt machinery.

As the cost of rebuilding a set of French horn valves has well exceeded $1,000 - and doing tuba valves is certainly going to be more than horn, it's probably worth it to take a look at the price of a new set, particularly if the porting is compatible with the original circuit bows that feed into them...

... but I'm referring to really worn and really leaky rotary valves here, and not just some that need a touch up on the bearings. When I see some European shop offering a vintage Kaiser B-flat for sale whereby they have installed all new rotors/casings and linkage, my eyebrows go up. When I've worked on French horns that featured rebuilt rotors via nickel plating, I've never thought to myself "Wow, these are absolutely like new", whether they were rebuilt by L, A, H, or any other shop.

[Mary Ann]

Just discovered all the valve caps (?) were 1/4 turn unscrewed, loose. WTF.
The noise is when they hit the bumpers.
Fortunately it still plays as remembered. I feel like I did a rescue mission, like a puppy you thought you gave to a good home and found out otherwise.

[bloke]

The noise is when they hit the bumpers.

Most all noise with all loose parts on most things is when something is jostled or when it suddenly stops.

Rotors with vertical play make noise when the hit their strike bumpers...up they suddenly go (into that .00X" space) and CLICK !!!

[Mary Ann]

And:
1. how do they get vertical play
2. How is that fixed

Remembering my horn I've had 20 years has nothing like this, everything tight as a drum.

[bloke]

And:
1. how do they get vertical play
2. How is that fixed

Remembering my horn I've had 20 years has nothing like this, everything tight as a drum.

The same way air conditioner condenser unit fan motors and all sorts of motors end up with vertical play.. use.

If you want to find out if your rotors actually have a little bit of bearing wear, they should be completely quiet with the back caps removed - if there is absolutely no wear.

[Snake Charmer]

Yesterday, after flushing and rinsing my Eastman Eb suddenly I had a loud clanking noise when using the valves.

No, it was not the typical valve cap , the rim of my Sellmansberger Solo Mouthpiece had come loose

[tofu]

.

[Mary Ann]

With the amount of polishing I'm having to do, it wouldn't surprise me if the silver is off in places. (If I were buying a new instrument, I would get lacquer. I got this used.)

However, the good news is that for the first time in a VERY long time, I played yesterday just for the enjoyment of it. Not "practicing." Just playing because I like producing music and can do it on this instrument, and I can play anything I know, by ear. The last time I did that was very likely on the violin before it was stolen. I used to drag out the violin about twice a year and go to town on it. So, even though I am bitching quite a bit, and I know I got ripped off (knew that ahead of time, but had my reasons for not ordering and waiting six months for a new one) -- I'm still delighted to have this back. if I get around to making a "demo recording" I'll put it up on dropbox. This thing has just an incredible high range and a completely accessible low range. Its low Bb, which is the equivalent of the low C on a rotary F, is totally accessible. If more people knew about this model, they would have them in stock.

[jtm]

This thing has just an incredible high range and a completely accessible low range. Its low Bb, which is the equivalent of the low C on a rotary F, is totally accessible. If more people knew about this model, they would have them in stock.

I tried one at TMEA, encouraged by the rep, who used to play Eb bass brilliantly in the San Antonio Brass Band. It was SO fun and easy to play, and with fantastic new tuba valves. If I hadn’t just upgraded my F tuba a month earlier, I’d have been seriously considering switching to that for brass band. So I should probably be careful about every going to TMEA again.

[bloke]

Most musicians play for the joy of it, including those who are paid to do it full-time. It's not a particularly good way to make money, and those who are paid salaries - that look like pretty decent salaries to some of us - live in cities where those salaries don't go very far at all, and they even go less far now that we've been subject to sudden hyperinflation (represented by our rulers as some seemingly manageable amount, but whereby a very large percentage of the things that we regularly purchase cost approximately double the amount they cost only three years ago).

===================

As far as high range is concerned, a lot of people like to say that if you can play up to blah blah pitch on blah blah tuba or trumpet or horn, you can play up to blah blah pitch on any tuba or trumpet or horn. That might sort of be true, but it's not really true - as far as "producing a marketable sound way up high" is concerned.

Particularly with the new mouthpiece I've designed, I can get a clear ringing sound on my F cimbasso up to D or E flat above the "trombone" high B-flat. I can produce those tones on any of my tubas, but they don't ring, and they're not that clear.
That having been said, if someone emailed me a PDF with a part that went up into that range, I would bring a smaller and shorter instrument to the gig then the F cimbasso. "Can" and "should" are not synonyms.

[jonesbrass]

I’m right there with you, Don. Having had horrible experience with King sousa valves and piston tubas in high school, I was “rotary only” for decades. It was only since I was able to play better-quality piston instruments that my openness to playing piston horns changed.
Now I’ve “progressed” to the point where I even have a <<gasp>> Chinese piston tuba which, after regular and thorough cleaning of the pistons (including valve bottom caps, etc.) also has trouble-free valve action.
Regular, thorough cleaning and oiling of all my tubas piston valve sets (even when the tubas are decade or more old) has made all the difference for my horns.

[bloke]

a ton of cheap/thin/evaporative oil - before every playing session

Oil is pretty amazing. I believe they talk about how much good it does with moving parts in cars, too.

Cleaning pistons/casings (or changing car oil) needs to be done periodically, but cleaning pistons/casings is a far less frequent requirement with this habit in place.

Arguably, super-frequent oiling can even *help "B-grade" valves to "lap" themselves in, somewhat.
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*Poorly-fitting surfaces articulate improperly, rub, wear, and oil takes away the material which is rubbing away, due to the friction.