Horn Shopping- addiction and frustrations

[DonO.]

So it has been almost two years now since I took delivery of my King 2341 and started my “comeback” journey. In retrospect, I was so lucky, getting a horn I really like in practically new condition for a great price, almost half what a new one would have cost at the time. But even after I found this great horn, I’m still shopping! Every day! I look at FleaBay, Reverb, Music Go Round, Dillon, Facebook, and many other sites EVERY DAY! I can’t seem to stop! That’s the addiction part. I guess I must have FOMO- worried that a really kick-ass deal is going to pass me by.

Asa result of my addiction I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the used tuba market, what’s out there and what you should have to pay for it. Over the past two years, after all this looking, I have only found a few things that actually interested me. I came real close on a Cerveny made Conn 99J, but decided I didn’t want to go “CC”. My little Kanstul I did pull the trigger on, because I thought I could use a smaller, lighter horn for certain occasions. I felt $1000 was a great price, but I do wish it had a fourth valve. Other than that, no complaints.

Now for the frustration part: Doesn’t anyone even TRY to take good care of their horns anymore? I HATE DENTS with a burning passion. When you find an interesting tuba, 99% of the time you are told “has dents, dings, scratches, and wear as can be expected on a used tuba”. I just can’t do dents. After two years my King is still dent free, and I intend on keeping it that way. My Kanstul came with only one TINY “ding” type dent, and it bothers me, even though it shouldn’t. I’m thinking about having it taken out. The repair guy will probably laugh at me and ask why I would even bother. And most of the used horns you see have a LOT of dents. Why are dents inevitable? Why can’t people just be careful, for cryin’ out loud!

My friends, I know some of you are thinking I’m some kind of anal-retentive nut case, but I’m sorry, I just hate dents. That’s it. That’s my jam. Trying to find a used horn without dents seems to be the impossible dream. Opinions? I am prepared for snide remarks, sarcasm, and whatever else comes my way.

[DonO.]

Sometimes life happens despite all we do in prevention.

Some reasonable dents and dings on a horn aren’t a dealbreaker. It’s usually pretty easy to tell the difference between scuffs and bumps from being used versus abused.

[Grumpikins]

I agree with you that people should be more careful. I've had my Cc tuba for 22 years and only acquired maybe 3 very small blemishes. It was dent free, but had laquer wear when I bought it. However, these are big horns. I've had other players bump into me numerous times and its annoying.

My king is a very old horn, and sometime before me it had a serious accident that was repaired pretty well. I loaned it to a friend once for like a year. The next time I saw it, it was being played by a recent HS grad in a community band. That boy wasn't treating it with any kind of respect and i promptly reclaimed my tuba. It had acquired many small blemishes. I dont think I will ever loan out again.

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[donn]

Don't remove that little dent. The first dent is the worst. If you keep putting it back in undented condition each time, every dent is the worst dent.

[KerryAbear]

What I hate is when you see a beat up horn and the seller is asking for mint price.

[DonO.]

What I hate is when you see a beat up horn and the seller is asking for mint price.

Yes! This! Another pet peeve of mine. Not just beat up horns at mint prices, but just overly optimistic prices overall. Often when you DO find one in mint or excellent condition, seller wants retail new price because they “want what they have in it”. Why would I buy that horn when I can have brand new for the same money? I’ve even seen sellers ask for OVER new prices on used horns!

Again, as far as the dents go, here are some more buzz phrases sellers use besides the one I already quoted: “a few minor dents but nothing outrageous”, “some dents and dings but nothing that affects sound”. “minor cosmetic damage”. I MIGHT consider a horn with a FEW dents, depending on where they were. Dents in a bell or lower bout should be pretty easy to remove, and I would build the cost of removing those into the price I would be willing to pay.

[arpthark]

Some folks refuse to admit they overpaid for their instrument, and when trying to resell it, stubbornly stick to the price they originally paid. This seems to be common with student and intermediate models. I don't know of anybody who is not a school who will be paying $4,500 for a three-valve upright 3/4 Jupiter B-flat tuba, even if it is like new.

(Are shiny, like-new three-valve student models the hardest tubas to price, outside of fan favorites like the YBB-103?)

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Some tubas just aren't "sexy" and you have to be realistic. I am fortunate that I have only ever bought my horns used, and have never lost money on them when the time came to move on. The one exception is when Greyhound mangled a shipment, and I had to make it right.

[bone-a-phone]

I got back into playing 11 or more years ago, and like you, I'm kind of addicted to looking for deals or great horns. Fortunately, I mostly play trombones, which are way smaller and cheaper. Last count is 13 slide horns and 4 valve horns. And always the most recent horn satisfies that itch - for about a month, and then I'm back on trail again, looking for the next greatest thing.

Worse than that, when I look to unload a few, it turns out that everyone else has more self-control than I do, and no one seems to be buying.

So it winds up that I have 4-5 horns that all play about the same, and they are all used for types of playing I rarely do.

And dents? Tubas are dent magnets. I've had one tuba for about 3 years and it has no big or even medium dents. Of course I rarely play it and it has only left the house a couple of times. They're heavy, hard to get through doors, hard to put down for a second, clumsy when you carry them, etc. I've actually put one or two dents in my trombones, and I always feel terrible when I do. A month ago, I put one on a stand and the whole thing just tipped over and hit the arm of a wooden chair. Big whack in the bell. Ugh. And when I take it to my local school instrument repair shop, they won't even touch it unless it's like a 50% of the diameter kind of dent. I've had to learn how to make peace with dents, unless they're on the slide, you can't take a dent to the slide.

My playing isn't so pristine that it can't allow for a couple of dents in the instrument. Plus, if I show up with a dent-free perfect instrument, people will expect me to play that way too, and I can't live with that kind of expectation. Most of my instruments are old, no lacquer (and very few dents - almost entirely there when I bought them). When you buy and use used instruments, dents really are part of the equation. That's another reason I won't buy new instruments - you lose so much value just taking them out of the box. There are so many suckers willing to take that hit for you, and it's a serious gut punch to dent a new instrument.

I heard of a well-known teacher who used to take a mouthpiece and intentionally dent each student's new horn. "Now you will stop worrying about putting in the first dent, and just play!"

[Mary Ann]

I was fortunate when I got my Star back that it had only a very tiny ding (or two, maybe) but other than the extreme level of tarnish i5 seems the same. The 183, which probably had a bit of a checkered history, has several major dents and the seller made sure I was ok with both the lacquer wear and the dents -- and for what I paid, yes I was ok. Some dents damage the playability pretty badly, but in this particular case, they didn't -- and I can take this tuba (I am NOT going to call it a "horn") to venues where I might not be totally comfortable taking the Star. As in, last October at the oom pah gig in the retirement place restaurant where the overly helpful guy banged a chair into the tuba and I had to dive to keep it from hitting the floor. If that had been the Star, I might be in jail for battery, with the same chair.

[prairieboy1]

I have dealt with the "Horn Shopping" addiction for many years. I now have four horns at home and after a long while, I am much less anxious about lacquer loss and small hard to reach dents. My horns are well used and hopefully well played. I do not have any plans at present to sell or acquire any more. As a dedicated Community Band member, I have all the equipment I need for the moment. My first new tuba was a VMI 103 BBb four valve rotary horn. I really tried to like using rotary valves, however it just did not work for me. As well, any real or perceived tiny scratch (of which there were 2 on the entire horn) just about caused me a nervous breakdown. I passed along the horn to my stand partner who has been playing on it for many years now and just loves it. He said "You'l love this horn a lot more when you do not own it" and he's right. I sure enjoy playing next to it. I do my best to look after these as best as I can, remembering that their purpose is to be played and make music. Hopefully I am achieving that. Being careful with them is just taking good care and stuff sometimes happens. Making music is the most important thing!

[Sousaswag]

Dents are inevitable; I’m very careful with my stuff but accidents happen. You put it down slightly too hard and there you have it. I don’t put large dents into my horns but small ones will happen. That’s our life. Especially if you use gig bags.

As long as you don’t put HUGE dents into it or get significant bell damage nothing is going to happen! We all hate dents but they’re not the end of the world.

I relate to continuing to shop even after you’re totally happy. I don’t anticipate changing up my horns at all. I played my Willson F today in quintet and I can’t imagine anything better.

I see old Eb’s all the time that I’d love to buy but that I don’t NEED one bit! Once you find the horns that are right for you, you’ll tend to see things and say “hmm, that looks nice!” Or, “great price!” And keep scrolling along.

[jtm]

I dropped a mouthpiece, which had stuck to a table, about a foot onto the bell of my 188. A very small dent. It made me sad, and I've rearranged things so that particular mistake won't happen again. It'll be something else next time. It's inconsequential, but Rob went to the trouble to have all the dents and creases taken out before he sold it, and I haven't had it long enough to justify my own dents, so I'll get it fixed.

I've enjoyed web-shopping for used tubas over the past few years as I got back into playing, but now everything I have is nice enough that I can't even pretend to blame the tuba for bad playing. Even the rotary F is enough in tune that bad music is definitely my fault. So I'm not checking the listings every day. It's better that way.

Now if I can just ignore Mary Ann's Norwegian Star stories....

[DonO.]

As a side issue, I never meant to offend anybody by referring to my tuba as “my horn”. I have called it that since I can remember, and I mean it as “musician’s slang”, like a violinist refers to “my fiddle” or a jazzer refers to his “axe”.

[bloke]

LOL...

I might (or might not...??) be selling yet another one of my (own) tubas ("horns") sometime soon.

...I haven't decided.

Mrs. bloke is actually somewhat sentimentally attached to MY instruments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft09y3d1sf8

[Mary Ann]

I only react to a tuba's being called a horn because, well, a HORN is a horn. I fully realize I am howling in the wind about it, but that will not stop me from howling.

[bloke]

A lot of us grew up with our band directors calling our instruments bass horns and baritone horns.

[Jperry1466]

A lot of us grew up with our band directors calling our instruments bass horns and baritone horns.

Same here. My band director called for a volunteer to play "bass horn", so I did. We didn't have any tubas at that time, just Sousaphones.

[donn]

I only react to a tuba's being called a horn because, well, a HORN is a horn.

"French horn" might be the term you're looking for. Language is for us to communicate with, and the International Horn Society's purposes are their problem. When people say "horn" in a context where that unambiguously must mean the European orchestral horn, that's fine. Outside of that context, the way to say it seems to be "French horn".

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

As with the tuba, did the International Horn Society (perhaps, some of Phil's then-in-charge-of-it students - shortly after his death...) decide that a horn player is called a horist ?

Adding more words always makes things more clear.
"Cor Anglais", as another example, translates to "English horn", which of course means that the instrument was invented in England.