4/4 or 5/4 BBb Tuba

[Erik_Sweden]

Right now I play on a Miraphone 497 Hagen (6/4 BBb), but find it a bit to large for me. I'm playing mostly in Concert Band.
Which in you opinion is the most easy to play (4/4 or 5/4 rotary BBb) tuba in the low register (Bb under the system and below)?

/Erik

[Kevbach33]

I'd give a B&S GR51 (or the Eastman copy) a shot. I tried one and the low register just roared out of it. Don't be deceived by the smaller-than-the big-Hagen (19-20 mm iirc for the B&S) bore size.

Speaking of Hagen models...

The 496 (5/4) could be right up your alley if you otherwise like the way the 497 plays. I've read nothing but good on here and want to try one myself.

OTOH, don't let ease of use in the low register take away from the staff register. Depending on the concert band, you might find yourself playing there more frequently than belting low F's.

[Mary Ann]

I find the 494 to be able to really put the sound out, and it's not going to require the same air -- plus -- it is a stellar tuba in all ways. Play one of those before you make a decision.

[MiBrassFS]

As above, the B&S GR51 is delightful.

I’ve never tried one of the smaller Hagen cousins…

[pjv]

Consider that downsizing might mean downgrading.
I moved from a 496 to a 497 because the instrument played better. Probably has to do with their being more handmade parts on the 497 plus a lot more attention to detail. It's a higher end tuba in all aspects. The better the tuba, the easier it is to play, the less you have to work.

Having said that I did play a 494 that I thought was amazing. It had a much fatter low end than I expected. It's a new model so it wouldn't surprise me if Miraphone is giving this tuba just a bit more quality time when building it. For now.

But the proof is in the pudding: would a 494 be as satisfying in a concert band situation or would it be even more work?

Have you tried other mpc's on the 497. Some tuba's can really benefit from a mpc with a larger/smaller/different shaped rim/cup/throat/backbore/shank/blah blah. And not necessarily what you expect. After a lot of fudging around my Blokepiece symphony w/profundo rim plays way easier (for me!) than any other set-up.

Good luck.

[donn]

Right now I play on a Miraphone 497 Hagen (6/4 BBb), but find it a bit to large for me.

In what way?

• physically uncomfortable while playing?
• ... while transporting to and from?
• hard to play some parts of the range?
• ... everywhere in the range?
• ... to get the sound you want?
• ...?

My 2nd tuba, the first one I put much money and thought into acquiring, was a Miraphone 190 BBb, their largest at that time, and yeah, I guess it was too big for me, as a beginner with very ill formed technique. (Also maybe it wasn't that great of a tuba - I'd like to have a second look at it today, most of the complaints were about the C 190. When a model is made in both C and BBb, never buy the C.) 35 years later my tuba isn't much smaller, so what moral can we draw from this? I'm a better player today; I could have made that progress a lot faster regardless of the tuba.

My last two big tubas were a Holton 109 from the '40s, and a Kalison "Pro" BBb. In practicle they're about the same size, but the Holton is 6/4 and the Kalison is 5/4 - don't ask me why. The Holton was an incredible burden to carry around, the Kalison less so, and the Kalison has a lot more general purpose tuba sound, where the Holton was so dark it kind of stuck out in the band sound.

Which one was more likely to be found in a school band? The Holton. Well, not the 109, but only because it arrived on the scene at an awkward time, but it's Holton's answer to the Conn 20J.

The suggestions already posted look like better advice than you're going to get out of this post, I'm just having a little fun with the 6/4 tuba thing.

[Erik_Sweden]

In what way?

• physically uncomfortable while playing?
• ... while transporting to and from?
• hard to play some parts of the range?
• ... everywhere in the range?
• ... to get the sound you want?
• ...?

I guess the problem is that I'm a to bad player and don't have the correct technique.
...and there is no tuba teacher where I live.

The problem I have is that I can play the low notes, but the come out of the horn to late (slow reponse).

My thinking was that maybe a 6/4 don't help me, so a smaller tuba may be easier to play (faster response). This may be wrong, and best approach is maybe to try to find a teacher.

[Sousaswag]

I really, reeeeeeally liked that new Yamaha BBb. The 623? I thought it was excellent.

I also used to own a VMI/B&S 3302 that was also really great. And didn’t cost that much money.

Before you go out and buy a tuba, get with someone who can help you. I never thought the Hagen was hard to play low stuff with. It should be the opposite.

[Mary Ann]

I agree teacher not a bad idea, but the late response is a size thing -- the bigger the tuba the more you have to play ahead of the beat if you want the sound to be on the beat. Everybody does it, but some may not be aware of it. It's like every note starts like a grace note; just change your habit (can take some mind bending) and it will save you the cost of a new tuba. I would not know this if I had not had the experience of playing with the (prior) tuba from Tucson Symphony; up close he was notably ahead of the beat, and out in the hall right on the beat, even in something as close up as a quintet concert.

[rodgeman]

After buying my 601 last fall, I wasn't looking for a Large BBb, in fact I started a thread specifically saying I didn't want a tuba recommendation with the 20 inch bell, but then I played the eastman 534 at the DC conference, and then again at TMEA a week later and fell in love with it. SO much better than the king 2341, and at a very reasonable price.

It's large enough to lay down an impressive rich sound, but also very nimble and responsive. It made me give up CC tuba and go back to BBb and Eb full time

[Mary Ann]

It's going to be interesting to see if a trend is starting, to go from CC to BBb. There really is a difference in what you can get out of an otherwise equivalent pair. I am tickled pink with my BBb. Admittedly I have not owned an equivalent CC, but I like what I hear. Maybe some day I'll get a crack at a 188.

[Tubeast]

I second the idea of giving your horn another chance.
I´ve been totally in your situation, several times:
- switching from flugelhorn to tuba was the biggest challenge timing-wise
- adding CC to F was a challenge as well
- switching from 3/4 CC to 5/4 BBb even more so.

Don´t over-analyse it. Find an understanding drummer-buddy or a backing-track to groove with.
Experiment with changes in air flow, exaggerated articulation (from sloppy "t" to very very crisp "d", for example) as well as dynamics.

Try practising with sound protection (ear plugs or over-ear cups, or both):
it will give you a better access to what your articulation an buzz are doing.

The idea is to let your body make changes in your mind-muscle connection and -coordination.
Most of playing is sub-conscious tasks of coordination rather than the use of your frontal lobes of brain.
Sort-of like riding a bike.

[bloke]

The tuba that I stuck together for my own use is remarkably easy to play in the lower pitches range, but you're not going to be able to buy one. The closest thing to it offered for sale is a new-style King 2341.

If you would like to keep the 6/4 Miraphone, you might try a mouthpiece with a smaller throat, such as 8 mm, rather than 8.2 or "8.huge".

My experience is that with a very large tuba with a very large bore, the sound isn't going to be any smaller with a smaller throat, if the rest of the mouthpiece is the same.

[Tubeast]

What I offered above was hints on improving the response-time that elapses between your initiation of a note and that note´s actual appearance at the bell. Or rather, your control and awareness thereof.
Once you achieved YOUR best (not necessarily your shortest attainable, but rather your best defined and most reliably reproduced) response time, any remaining delay can ONLY be fixed by anticipation, i.e. initiate your note early so it begins on time (whatever "on time" may be).

There´s a difference between playing "in tempo" (=correct time span between consecutive notes) and "in time" (regardless of tempo, the placing of those notes is synchronised with everybody else´s to a DEFINED delay time, which may be smaller, greater, or equal to zero).
One can play with impeccable tempo while playing completely out of time.

Google "playing the pocket" for further reading...

[Mary Ann]

I'm both surprised and not surprised by the lack of discussion about delay time for the sound to get out of a tuba. Surprised because for some of us who have come from long term competent playing on more responsive instruments, like the trumpet family and horn, the difference is obvious and difficult to deal with. For those whose life-long instrument has been tuba, you haven't been adapted to a faster response instrument, and the tuba response is what is the norm for you, so you can't see the problem. I don't know how well I have adapted because, first, my group playing is on an Eb, and second, in brass band I'm not very far from the conductor. On a contrabass farther back, I think I'd have to pay some attention.
As another example, a couple years ago I was playing a triangle part in a concert band and was quite far from the conductor, was "dead on" with the beat, and she kept asking me to anticipate more because the sound was getting to her on the bottom of the beat. And that wasn't a tuba, just distance.

[bloke]

re: anticipation

With smaller tubas and euphoniums, I notice very little need to compensate for this.

bloke "an insensitive lout"

[GC]

Does the 3rd valve allow a top slide pull? It might be better for pulling in the pedal range than 1st. Some horns allow it, most don't.

[bloke]

We are all still learning, and I'm an old person who is still learning. A really fine 6/4 tuba that also is not difficult to play in tune is pretty alluring, because of that wide sound that's coming from us and us alone. I suspect that one of the things that taxes a whole bunch of players of 6/4 size instruments is struggling with the intonation, even though they may not realize that this factor is exhausting their energy as they play them.
Stepping down one size in a really good instrument just seems to be a compromise, at least to me, but stepping down two sizes to a really fine 19-inch bell 11/16" bore instrument - at least, in my experience - offers a broader sound than the five quarter size instruments, and (with apologies to the Eastman C tubas-in-this-size-range lovers) a B-flat instrument - in this size range - is considerably more resonant than a C instrument and very little more work to play, if any...
...The only thing that comes fairly close to what I would consider the ideal of this would be a King 2341, yet I consider it to be slightly larger than optimal. The ideal 4/4 and 11/16" bore B-flat would probably have been the Getzen/Canadian Brass-marketed tuba, except NOT cut to C... and nothing like that is marketed or ever has been. They've only existed in the world where people take old 32-in tall York or Holton tuba bodies - eschewing cutting them to C - and mounting King valve sections on them.

[Thomas]

I would test different mouthpieces before thinking of changing the tuba. At the age of 16 still doubling euphonium, me and my teacher found the Yamaha Roger Bobo Symphonic perfectly right for me. I later switched to a Wick 1XL when playing a British BBb.

Today, almost 30 years later, for the very same 5/4 Kaisertuba (Alex 164) deep mouthpieces in the 33mm size range feel and play best for me. I still have the Bobo Symphonic which I use as a reference from time to time to not be mislead by the sheer size of a mouthpiece.

I found the PT88 to be a very flexible orchestra mouthpiece for a 5/4 sized tuba, faster in response (for me) than the PT50, especially when playing below Bb. Another option might be the Wick 1XL (Classic).

Or one of the smaller siblings of Perantucci and Wick. Just to name some available standard mouthpieces here in Europe as starting points.

I never really tried Tilz or Miraphone who surely also offer great options for that size range.

[Erik_Sweden]

If you would like to keep the 6/4 Miraphone, you might try a mouthpiece with a smaller throat, such as 8 mm, rather than 8.2 or "8.huge".

My experience is that with a very large tuba with a very large bore, the sound isn't going to be any smaller with a smaller throat, if the rest of the mouthpiece is the same.

Based on above I right now testing PT-84 (8.0 mm). So far it works well. Thx Joe